Episode 27: We Were Right at the Glorious Beginning
HANNAH: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Friends Missing Friends.
Today I talked to Audrey, she is a writer and editor extraordinaire and a dear friend of mine. And in fact, in 2021 she was my editor for the memoir about friendship and grief that I’ve been working on, and I gotta say – honestly I could NOT have written those first drafts without her.
In today’s conversation, Audrey and I talked about the loneliness and unique grief of losing a friend, and specifically in her experience, grieving a friend who passed away unexpectedly just a few weeks after they met. They were just starting to become really close. Every loss of a friend is unique and different. And yet, there are some universal feelings and experiences that so many of us can relate to – there were some things Audrey said that, it was like she was reading my mind. It was honestly crazy. Just one of the many reasons why I think it’s so important we share our stories!
Just a heads up – the topic of suicide comes up in this conversation. So Please take care of yourself, and if you or someone you know is experiencing a suicide crisis or mental health-related distress, you can call or text the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, formerly known as the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, at 988. Again, the number is 988.
Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you enjoy, my conversation with Audrey.
AUDREY: So when we talked a couple months ago, we talked about this experience I had where I was just getting to know another girl, young woman. We were both in undergrad. I think she was a little bit further along than me. I think I might have been a junior and she was a senior-ish. And I was thinking about this today and I can't even remember where we met. We were both involved in theater. And so we probably met through that. And it was this really like sort of instant connection. She was super edgy and cool. She had her hair sort of dyed black and cut in this like pretty punky way, which I thought was awesome. And I'm sort of that way myself. And we just ended up having this kind of instant connection and started hanging out and we were right in that friendship phase of like, you know, chit chatting about the bands we grew up listening to and stuff like that, like, you know, certainly not at a stage where, where, you know, we were telling each other our deepest, darkest secrets, right but in that like that kind of um…I don't know like early honeymoon phase of friendship, like maybe like swinging up into that phase where like, we might have stayed up all night talking right? We weren't quite there.
But like we would meet at this crepe shop. Which was either it was always playing either like death metal or very, like, do French music like I don't know, Frenchie jazz. And there was like no in between, like, during the day it was Frenchy jazz and then it would have hit like 6pm and they were open till like nine or 10. And then like the weird guys who work there would like play death metal as they were making crepes, which was really funny. So we met at this crepe shop a couple of times and had crepes and she was super, super funny and lovely. And yeah, I mean, it's the way all of my lifelong friendships have started, right? That kind of like I don't know, like, I think about this is so silly, I think about like the claymation movie of Rudolph and he gets super excited when like the sweet little girl deer likes him. And he says “she likes me she really likes me!”
And like that's totally how I felt I was like, “Oh my God, this person's really cool.” And she likes me like she wants to hang out, especially because when I have friendships, they tend to be really Ride or Die intense friendships. And I have like 1 to 3 at a time, friendship hasn't always come easy. Like, I don't know sometimes I go out to dinner and I see these huge bachelorette parties. And I'm like, how did you get all those women? Like you have like nine women that you can have wear this weird wig and little t-shirt that says “team bride” like, I would have to hire actors like they used to do in Victorian funerals to be my bridesmaids if I wanted that!
I don't even know that many women or men or anyone, like hired mourners I would have to get hired bridesmaids, so. So it was just like very intense initial connection. But also for me like that feels extremely special. Because, you know, it's like there have been a couple times throughout my childhood where I had a really crummy time transitioning to a new school when I was in middle school, and I had no friends. Like, none for a year or two years. Like truly none. Like every day was like, what lunch table do I sit at that's going to be the least rejection. Right? It's something I really don't take lightly, I guess. It's always felt like that's a very valuable, valuable thing. So that's sort of how our friendship started. I honestly I don't remember when we first met, had to have been through theater. But I just remember getting crepes and just laughing and laughing.
HANNAH: That's so sweet. And may I ask her first name?
AUDREY: Yeah, her name is Sara.
HANNAH: How long were you kind of in that honeymoon friendship phase?
AUDREY: Honestly, like, two/three weeks before she passed away. Which I think is why it was so surprising. And I was thinking about this today too. Like, it wouldn't have been easier had I known her longer. Like nothing can make that feel easier or better. But there was something about it being so in this glorious beginning that made it so surprising. Though I think it would have been surprising at any time, right? Like we were, I want to say I must have been just 20, I'd probably just turned 20. And she was maybe 20 or maybe 21, much too young for anybody to go.
But I found out they sent this, you know when you're going to a school and a student dies, they send the administration sends this email. This has happened a couple of times. This was the first time that it was someone I really really knew and was connected to where they said like, “we regret to inform you that over this break So and So passed away, our thoughts are with her family,” it's that very sort of standard email. And so I got that email, and I looked at it and I didn't even read it. I sort of glanced at it and assumed I wouldn't know that person. And I deleted it.
And my roommate came home and she was like “I'm so sorry Aud,” and I was like, “What are you talking about?” And she was like “Sara,” and I was like “what are you talking about?” She was like “didn't you get that email?” and I was like, “that wasn't about Sara.” And she was like, “it was, it was Sarah. She died.” And I sort of flipped out, like I honestly feel bad about it, but I kind of yelled at her I just didn't believe it. I was like “no,” I really sort of yelled, like “no it's not her”, and got pretty angry.
But it was, so…we went home for a break, I think it was Thanksgiving, and she completed suicide, which is just extremely sad.
HANNAH: I’m so sorry.
AUDREY: She was just a really beautiful person. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of times when that happens, people have a lot of feelings of like, I could have done something or said something or been there. And I don't exactly feel that way because we were just in the throes of a new friendship, right? It wasn't time for either of us to talk, we honestly joked a little bit about mental health and stuff, I've struggled with depression myself since probably puberty maybe before. And so we'd kind of joked about like, “Haha, I'm weird because my mental health is crappy” or whatever. And we both were kind of punky alternative-ish people. I feel like that's a normal subject for such people to joke about, like, we both had been sort of former emo kids. Which we'd laughed about a lot. But, so I mean, I knew it was a struggle of hers, but I certainly didn't know how bad, I mean I was just right on the edge of like, you know, that first big cracking open where you start really divulging those important pieces of yourself. And I don't have a fantasy that I could have fixed it or anything like that. Just it was part of I think the surprise that I didn't know.
HANNAH: It would be so surprising. I mean yeah, like you said it’s like, not even like if you knew her more it would make it less of a surprise. But it's also surprised kind of in a different way, maybe.
AUDREY: Yeah, I think just in a different way. Like I don't think anything ever prepares you to lose a friend. I don't think anybody anything ever could prepare anyone to lose someone to suicide. Even if there's a history that you know about, actually. A friend of mine just lost someone who I never knew, that he knew had been struggling greatly. And it was still a huge surprise to him, you know, even though he knew, like he was there through other attempts and things like that. And I don't think it's—well, maybe that's not true. I can't speak for everyone's experience of course. But like, it's hard for me to imagine ever feeling prepared. Or not surprised.
But I don't know, it almost feels like there should be this magical bubble that in cases like amazing kind of puppy love, first friendship feeling of everything they say is extremely funny and like, you know, everything they say is surprising and exciting because you don't know them that well but you're like, “oh we connect about that”. “Oh, we connect about that, amazing,” like that. It makes me almost feel like sort of almost drunk, like that kind of starry-eyed drunk feeling. And I mean it's like falling in love, right and like, it…there's no right time, there's no good time, there's no okay time, but something about it being right at the start of something right in this magical upswing…
She was so freaking funny and so smart and so beautiful. That like, it never even crossed my mind. It'd be extremely strange if it did cross my mind. But it just felt like, I mean, it felt like getting hit by a truck.
HANNAH: Was there any sort of support that you were able to get at the school? Or was there support that you wish that you'd gotten?
AUDREY: I did go see a school counselor. And there was a teacher of mine who was amazing and really noticed I was suddenly struggling, not so much with my grades. I just I was so very much clearly not myself, and pulled me aside and was like, “what's wrong?” and she suggested I go to a school counselor. But so I saw this counselor and she suggested that I write a letter to Sara and just say anything to her that I wanted to say.
So that felt somewhat helpful. But it wasn't as much about what I needed to say to her. It's like I wanted to be able to hear her still, you know, like, know more about her. I knew a tiny bit about her family, but I didn't know hardly anything about her family. Like we were just starting to get to know each other and like, I really felt like every new thing I learned about her was this beautiful jewel that was beautiful or funny or such a cool way of putting that or such a funny way of seeing the world and there were so many things we really like, had a mutual love for in childhood. Like even really stupid cringy things, like we both had a crush on Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance, but like, the way she talked about was so funny and irreverent. And more than I wish I could have shared more with her, I wish she could have shared more with me, you know? And I mean, I can write every letter in the world but I am not gonna be able to have that.
HANNAH: Thank you for sharing. It must be really hard to go back to that intense emotion…
AUDREY: Yeah, and it’s not a place I go that often. You know I've talked about it a little bit, but it's so funny, it almost feels so out of time. If I had been friends with her friends or she'd been friends with my friends, or something like that, like I feel like I'd have people to sort of share that with, but even my friends and I still have from that time—I mean truly remember her as like “your friend that died.” I mean they don't remember her as a person. They didn't know her. So that kind of makes me sad too that like I, I guess I feel like I'd maybe talk about her less than she deserves and also, I don't want to make anybody bummed out or uncomfortable. You know, like it's not a happy story.
HANNAH: Yeah it's hard to know when to bring it up, you know? Especially if the people don't know them. It's like you might want to talk about them. But it's so hard to find that opening I feel like. I don't know.
AUDREY: Yeah, and when you find that opening like I don't know, even if I was talking to someone about something that she would have loved, if I was like, “Sara would have loved this,” they would be like “who?” And then I would say “my friend who died.” And then even if it was something positive, something she would have found funny. It feels like I then sort of have to explain and everything spirals back to it being very sad. Which you know, a lot of my memories of our friendship are sad now. But I also want to remember her like, freaking cracking up when some stupid song came on at the crepe shop, you know?
And, like, I want to remember her laughing and smiling because there were those moments too. But it's sort of hard to find exactly where to wedge that into my life without her.
HANNAH: Especially, like you said you don’t really have mutual friends with her.
AUDREY: None. None. Which is strange. And I have friends who remember me struggling with this but they didn't know her. So they only really know her in the context of that loss and because also because our friendship and loss are so close together, you know, that also makes some sense, right? You know, I think she went over to my dorm room maybe once, twice, but I mean, truly, it was right as the beginning might have started to bridge into the middle, right? Like so…it's hard to figure out where to put it.
HANNAH: Yeah that's something I feel like I've been thinking about a lot. How it can be hard to know where to put the grief, which is essentially like, the love, and it's especially hard to know where to put it if we don't have an easily accessible way to do that.
AUDREY: Yeah, it's hard and I think like, this is a completely different loss, especially because this is an older person who died pleasantly in their sleep as we should all hope to, but like, even my dad and I talk about my grandmother, like, we talk about her and stuff. And this is just such a strange and kind of slippery loss for me because I don't know where to share it or who to share it with. Because it is different talking to someone who knew that person versus talking to someone for whom it's just sort of a story you're telling about your past, right? Like there's something very different, and I'm sure you’ve experienced that all the time.
HANNAH: Yeah, it is different. Yeah. There's something very healing about, and I think I even said this to you, about saying to like a mutual whoever friend/family member, like “oh my gosh, don't you remember when bla bla bla,” or like “when she did this or said that?” And it's so hard when you can't do that.
AUDREY: It's easier to I think, share those happy memories with people who saw them happy and they're like, in the flesh realized, right? it doesn't end up just being the story of my friend who passed away. You know, it feels like we're talking about this person we both loved.
HANNAH: This may be an impossible question to answer but I feel like counseling is helpful, but deep down I feel like it's not quite enough. Is there anything in your wildest imagination, if you could have gotten any support possible? Do you know kind of idea of what that would have been?
AUDREY: Yeah, what comes to mind is having been able to connect with the people who knew her. What comes to mind is if they actually, I mean, it's so sad they even had in the dorm she was living in they had a little gathering of her friends and stuff. And I didn't know, you know. I mean, truly, like, we were from really different social groups. No one really knew that we had this friendship that was kind of flowering. And I think maybe having been able to have that, be able to talk about her with other people who knew her would have been really helpful. And, you know, it's something I still could do. But I also don't want to make anybody sad. You know, it's not like I want to hit someone up on Facebook, and be like, “remember one of the worst things that's ever happened to you? I'd like to talk about it today.”
HANNAH: I know that’s so hard, you know, that’s what keeps me from reaching out to people too.
AUDREY: Though I think if someone did that to me, right, I would be like, “Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.” Like, right? I actually think I would respond really positively to that.
But for some reason I've struggled a lot with feeling…You know, because I wasn't her best friend, right? I wasn't her boyfriend. I wasn't her sibling. You know, I was just barely becoming something important to her. So I've also struggled a lot with like, you know, it breaks my heart. But I am not—this is also a classic struggle for me—I'm not the primary site of trauma, and therefore my feelings are not worth discussing. And that's not, of course true. And everyone's feelings are worth time and discussion and care, but I really struggle with seeing other people as sort of the primary hurt person. And so I need to kind of put up and shut up to take care of the primary hurt person or to not cause more pain to the primary hurt person. And so I really struggle with the idea of reaching out or something, because I'm sort of like, who the hell am I to be like, “can we talk” or whatever?
HANNAH: Yeah, you've touched on something that I think is way more common than people have even said out loud yet. Because I know exactly what you're talking about. I've talked to other people who felt the same way when they lost a friend. Because there is that fear or that feeling that the family and the partners have more claim and that we need to like, I don't know, stay away or respect their boundaries, which I struggle with because there might be some truth to that. But that also doesn't mean that we should completely discount our feelings. And it just, it just sucks.
AUDREY: Yeah, it's complicated. And it's so funny because I think about like, in any one I've loved and lost, right? If somebody reached out to me and was like, “I would love to hear a little bit more about what this person's life was like.” I would be like, “Absolutely. I'm dying to talk about that person. I love them. I care about them.” You know? Like, my response would never be like, “How dare you? I'm over here doing grief that's more important than yours.” Right? Like, I can't even imagine wording a response like that. And so you know, you also have to trust people to set their own boundaries and, you know, all of that. I've been through a lot of therapy.
Oh, my therapist laughs at me all the time. He's like, “you've clearly had a lot of therapy” because I will circle his job around for him. Going like, you know, and I know I'm dismissing my feelings right now and I know my feelings are supposed to be valid, but actually, I feel like my feelings aren't met like I already know you know, I know that like right answer is that like, of course, like you have to be open to that person's boundaries, but you can't just expect them to reject you or whatever you the fantasy of terribleness is, but the idea of actually going like online finding this person, opening an email or a message or something and writing something is like true. I mean, terrifying. Like I…It’s a little martyr complex of like, I'd rather just be in pain over here by myself then accidentally cause someone else more pain, you know?
HANNAH: Yeah it’s so hard.
AUDREY: I think it also perturbs me because in some ways, she's such a mystery to me still, because there were so many questions I didn't get to ask and have answers to. That maybe had I been able to go somewhere and hear other people talk about her and get this like, clear portrait of her life because I only knew this one beautiful and exciting but small sliver. I think maybe that would have helped process it. Because it felt almost like, not like my imaginary friend had died, right? But this really weird feeling of this massive thing has happened for me. And everybody who knows me is like, “Oh, I'm really sorry that happened to you.” Like I mean, they had no emotion around it or anything. So I was having this like, I mean, bomb go off in my life. And everyone was like, “oh, there was a bomb? Sorry, it exploded.” Like they had no idea.
So that felt like, not like gaslighting, but almost I truly I mean, it almost felt like I was losing my grip on reality a little bit because there was no one else there reflecting my emotional state. Does that make sense?
HANNAH: Oh my gosh, yes, yes.
AUDREY: Like when you're walking around through life, like going to class doing your thing, whatever. And inside, you're a storm. And everyone else is like, “Oh, we got a paper to write” or whatever. It was just really strange that my internal world felt so terrible and the external world didn't reflect that at all. Like, it was like nothing happened. You know?
HANNAH: Yeah, that's a very lonely place to be. Yeah, it's crazy that you use the word gaslit even though you said maybe not gaslit, but I was just reflecting on this the other day, and I had a different experience than you, but there were little slivers of similarities. And yeah, I felt a little bit gaslit by the world.
AUDREY: Yeah, like, I mean, how dare you look the same and have fun, there's a hole in my life. But it doesn't seem like there's a hole in the fabric of the world. It's just like you're supposed to, like pretend you're fine. And everyone else kind of is like, just like a nightmare. And I felt so different, but everything else stayed the same.
HANNAH: It's the worst. I really did, when I was in that space as well, I kind of felt like I was losing my sanity a little bit to be honest.
AUDREY: Yeah. Oh, totally. Totally. And even like, this horrible, weird feeling of like, did I make this up? Like, almost did I make up how intense this friendship felt to me and how intense this loss is feeling? Because I know, rational brain here says, “no, you didn't make it up. You really cared about a person.” But I have all these weird feelings around like, we weren't lifelong best friends. You know, we weren't even current best friends. We were just at this beautiful start of something exciting.
It almost feels like I have this weird impostor syndrome around my own emotions, like am I faking them? Of course not, and also like God, if I was gonna fake emotions, I’d fake happier ones. Like I’d pick a different one. That emotion sucks. Like I don't know, if I was gonna fake anything, it wouldn't be, God, the tragic loss of a friend way too young. Like, I would fake that I had a million dollars or something, like I’d fake something fun, this is so horrible.
But I think because it felt so extremely lonely, and it felt like the rest of the world didn't change. And because, of course, it wasn't my private explosion. There were so many people affected by this, but I didn't know them. And I couldn't see them. So it felt like my private explosion. That it almost felt like I was gonna wake up one day and not it wasn't even just real that she hadn't passed, but like that I had never known her at all. It was this very strange feeling that I felt like I was feeling much too much.
HANNAH: I mean, it's interesting because even though we have different experiences, it's like you're taking this from my head.
AUDREY: But I think when you say like, “I lost my friend.” People are really unsure what to do with that like.
HANNAH: I think that's true, especially because the word friend is so vast, it can explain someone slightly above an acquaintance to like, your soulmate, you know?
AUDREY: Completely.
HANNAH: It’s almost like I wish there was a better word for it.
AUDREY: Yeah, or different words for different types of friends and even like with you know, a couple people I'm so lucky to have in my life, I struggled even to call them my friends, like one person. One of my dear friends, I described him as if we didn't look so different, I would be worried that one of our fathers had gone astray and that we were secretly secret siblings or something. We are like, Yeah, we are one soul in two bodies. Like he and I are, you know, it's not my partner. He's not just a friend though. Right? Like, he is one of the great loves of my life. He really is one of the great loves of my life. It's not a romantic love. Though we tried and it went terribly. Not terribly, it's just, you know, in the last lifetime, we were lovers and the next lifetime we will be twins, in this lifetime we are dear friends, right? Like he is just like, he is a fracture of my soul. We are one in that way.
And I mean, this is also me and friendship, right? Like, I have acquaintances and I have friends that I'm like “we are one soul,” not a lot of in between. I love incredibly intensely. I really struggle with like, medium love. That's a hard place for me to be, I mean, they're like, I would go to prison for you. Or like, I guess I know your name. Those are kind of my levels, so I think that's also why like Sara, like I struggle even saying, you know, I knew her for maybe a month, probably a little bit less. And I struggle with explaining like how much that meant, right, that tiny little sliver of time. Like she could have been so much to me, and was becoming so much to me and so I think it's just so hard; how do you describe, you know, your friend who you say hi to in class sometimes, versus someone who you know, is as important as anyone else, right? And I love my blood family, and I love my wonderful wonderful partner. But I don't necessarily see that I love my friends less, like I think we think of friends as like you have your family and romantic human. And then tier two is how much you're supposed to feel about your friends.
HANNAH: Yes. I hate it.
AUDREY: I don't feel tier two. I love him in different ways. But honestly I think even that is complicated, I think our delineations between like, this is my erotic romantic human, and these are my humans that I like platonically, whatever that means. And there's never romanticism and there's never eroticism it is completely platonic, so help us God. I think that's actually like, why can’t I hold my friends hands? But like my hairdresser was talking to me. I went and got my hair cut. And she was like, “and when I sleep over at my friends, she listens to rain noises” and she was like, “oh my god, I can't believe I said that. It's super weird that I know she listens to rain noises because we sleep together. Because we're like having a sleepover and I know we're adult women and we're not like sleeping together. But like we sleep in the same bed and we snuggle.” And she got like, all flustered and freaked out. I was like “It's not weird!”
HANNAH: That’s beautiful.
AUDREY: I think that's sweet. Can I come?
HANNAH: It's so interesting, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, is that one reason why I think we all are wistfully think back to like childhood and how free we were in many ways, you know, we have slumber parties and sleepovers and we hold our friends hands and we're not all weirded out by that yet. Until like, yeah, it becomes weird to show any sort of physical affection unless it leads to sex or something. Like, what?
AUDREY: It's so sad too, that like romantic relationships are hard, right? Like they come and go and this idea that like, if you're not in a romantic relationship, then you get no hugs. It's like, fucked up.
HANNAH: Oh my God, but it's true. Because I haven’t been hugged in a long time. And I'm not in a romantic relationship.
AUDREY: I'm in the car driving to Chicago to give you a hug.
HANNAH: In my everyday life I don't get hugged at all. And I think that's true for a lot of people. A lot of people.
AUDREY: I don't think we're really meant to live like, and it's funny because like, I wouldn't even consider myself touchy feely. In fact, my culture is called Small Town Midwest. People are freaking huggers. Like, I have a lot of memories of being enveloped by people who I barely knew, and being like, “Why are you touching me?” You're my like, my not friend's mom. Like your kid’s actually really mean to me. You're my bully’s Mom, why are you giving me this warm embrace? Very, very weird. Like, I mean, people are pretty huggy up here. Which having been in Chicago now and like been a city person, I'm kind of like, “what are you doing?” And then I'm like, Oh, it's a hug.
But especially for my like, culture or whatever. I'm not super huggy. I wouldn't consider my family like, physically unaffectionate but I wouldn't consider us super affectionate either. But I do think culturally we are freaking weird about physical touch. And weird about friendships, weird about putting them in this kind of like “Good day, sir.” “Okay, good day to you” box.
Like so much so that when your hairdresser has a best friend for years, and sometimes they sleep in the same bed as adults, she blushes and gets flustered and freaks out.
HANNAH: I think that's so sweet. And actually, like, I would love to have a slumber party again, but I feel like let's have a slumber party but maybe I'll get over that and we'll just do it because I'm sure someone out there would want to do it.
AUDREY: Oh my gosh, I think like everyone wants that.
HANNAH: I think everyone is so freaking lonely. Yeah, I truly, truly truly.
AUDREY: I completely agree and I think also sometimes like starving in a room full of food, right? Like you have friends. But there are these strange societal kind of mores or whatever that say you can't put your head on your friends lap and like, screw that! There are people in this world who love you. Let who loves you love you.
But like on the subject of like friends missing friends, you don't know how much time you have. You might have three weeks and like, hug that person, right? Braid their hair. Have a sleepover, you don't know like how long…
HANNAH: No, it's oh my gosh, this is why I want to talk to people about this because it's like showing that a lot of these feelings are very common, or more common than we realize. And even just talking to you, like you're voicing things I've been thinking about recently as if it was this novel idea. It's like, oh, wait, yeah, shared human experience. It's like, Why did I have to come to that conclusion on my own? I feel like, why aren't we talking about this more? You know?
AUDREY: I completely agree. And like, I think the more we talk about our emotions, the less they feel so big and scary and weird. Sort of around anything. But I do think this is a funny one. You know, I think there are spaces for talking about certain arenas of loss. And I'm sure they're imperfect spaces, but they exist. And I think this is kind of a funny arena where there aren't that many spaces to talk about it, you know?
It's quite healing, you know, I think we turn to other people's stories to see ourselves reflected and not feel alone. And this seems to be an area where those stories are for some reason not told the way other ones are. And so I think even in you talking about your story. It's going to help so many people feel like they're just less alone.
HANNAH: Thank you for sharing your story today.
AUDREY: Thank you. I really appreciate it. I'm happy to have talked about it actually. It feels it feels nice to spend an hour or so remembering her. That actually feels really nice.