Episode 24: Grieve the Way You Need To
KAREN: Probably about 20 years ago, 20 years already. Someone who I had grown up with in Chicago and her name was Eilene. And I've lived in Los Angeles twice. And the first time I moved out here I stayed with her until like for like three or six weeks until I found a job and we've been we've been friends since we were probably about 12 or 13. And then we kept up the friendship and she was one of my very, very, very best friends. And she got cancer and went through…the process that she went through was as much of a loss as her actual crossing over. Probably more so. And she’s a wonderful and very kind but a very buttoned up person, very, very organized. She was a paralegal in the latter years of her life. I mean, this was somebody who I had grown up with that I was losing and in the whole process was very difficult. She had wanted me to be her executor yet she was afraid to sign any papers. And so it was like a push-pull kind of thing. Well Eilene, I mean you know, if you want me to do this, then I have to be given the legal right to do that. And it was probably her illness that created the fear in her.
So it was the process of losing her where I experienced a great deal of pain and loss. As I've been on my spiritual journey—what I needed to do to deal with was my loss and I talk to people on the other side. I don't I don't often hear them answer back but I do communicate with them.
And since preparing for this podcast, I think I've been communicating with her more than I had.
HANNAH: Oh really? May I ask in what ways?
KAREN: You know, I just talk to her. Good morning, Eileen. You know, how you doing, Eileen, you know, I miss you, just kind of in that way. Just kind of put it out to the universe and I assume that that she hears me.
HANNAH: That’s so special, that’s so sweet.
KAREN: Well, I'm very fortunate to have the belief system I have. It was funny when my mother died and I talked to her a lot about crossing over and my belief system and my father was 10 years later, they both said, “Well, gee, that's really nice.” And I'm glad it comforts you. And my mother said “I wish I could believe that.” And I said “you can,” I mean that's a choice.
I visited with my mother. She lived in Florida. And then I was working on a television show and I came back to LA and she was being operated on. And the day she was being operated, before I went to work I was in meditation. And I saw her leave her body. Which as far as I knew, she hadn't died yet. But an hour later I got a call from my father that she never recovered from the operation, but I really believe I saw her leave her body.
HANNAH: So what, how did that look like? Like in your head? You saw it or you saw her?
KAREN: Yeah, it was in in my imagination. I guess when you're meditating and you’re in that very quiet space. I saw her, a younger version of her leave her body, snap her fingers and go “oh my gosh, Karen was right.” And that was it. So, that belief system has made losses for me certainly much easier.
Just six months ago, a colleague of mine who I worked with at the company where we do satellite media tours. And she went on a dream vacation with her husband, this was her third husband. He is really her soulmate. She loves animals and hiking, and they went on this hiking tour in, I think this was in Oregon, what she and he had always wanted to do. And we get a call that she had a hiking accident and died instantly. Tamra was probably about 10 years younger than me. And it's interesting probably of the losses, because she was young and vital, it's been one of the most interesting transitions that I've experienced. Number one, I constantly think about her and I talk to her all the time. Number two, we had we known each other for 17 years on work together on and off. But we had never exchanged gifts or anything like that. And three months before, she sent me an email and said “send me your address, I saw something that reminded me of you.” And I get godbumps every time I think of this story. And so I get this cup. I always signed my emails and have for probably 25 years, “Love and Light.” And this cup says “Light and Love.” So that was so sweet. Then she crossed over, and now I have this momentum and you know, I drink out of the cup every day.
So the loss is more me missing. In her case, I miss her because we worked together so much. Something will come up, and I miss her more than I would’ve thought. And I do talk to her, certainly when I tell her good morning when I’m having my tea. In the cup she sent me a cup it's like oh my gosh—
HANNAH: because you can use it every day.
KAREN: Exactly. And it's very plausible to me that her soul knew and that’s why she sent it to me.
Grieve any way you need to. I think the biggest thing is grieving is to not have any rules. Know that whatever you need to do is fine. And there's no quick fixes; it may pass through quickly, or it may be years. But don't feel that you have to go by anybody else's rules of what grieving’s about.
HANNAH: I agree with that. I've heard that a lot of times a feeling about a feeling is what sometimes causes the most suffering.
There's a grief expert that I follow on social media, her name is Megan Devine. And she posts these things that say like, “do you do this? This is perfectly normal in grief.” So she'll say like different things. And like, on days when I don't necessarily resonate with it, I'm like, Oh, that's nice. But then there were a few where it actually was like a gut punch. And I was like, “I did think I was crazy for doing that.”
KAREN: Really? Wow.
HANNAH: Yeah. And I’m trying to think of an example. It was like, “not being able to read her messages,” or “obsessively reading her messages.” Like, both are normal. I was just surprised that I needed to hear that.
KAREN: No one teaches you how to grieve. I mean they’re starting to talk about it now but there really is no, I mean I don't know about you and your family but I go to a funeral and my family was the Jewish faith. So there's something called seven days. It's a Shiva. There's seven days which I actually never thought was—I never really understood it. Because it gives you a time where you are dedicated to dealing with your grief. And nobody can question it. Nobody can tell you how to do it. And people come and they bring food. But you know, it's a contained period of time, where you can do whatever it is that you need to do to grieve. And I think it's probably a good thing and I don't think everybody needs seven days but you know, might need two years, but I think the principle behind it is very good. It's honoring the process of your loss.
Can you share about your loss?
HANNAH: Sure, yeah. Well, first I want to say I wish that I was able to do something like that. I think taking seven days, especially in the beginning when it can sometimes be such a shock you just need that time. And I didn't have that so I just took a couple of days off of work. But I was going so insane. Because I was all alone at home that I was like, I have to go back to work. So if I one, had seven days with friends and family visiting me, I wouldn't have been alone. The only reason I went back to work is because I was going batshit crazy in my room. I was literally pacing in this tiny three-foot space because I don't know what to do. What do you do? Because nothing is important anymore. You know, everything lost its meaning all my like every day, menial tasks lost their meaning. So yeah, no, the seven days sounds really nice. I wish that was a more widespread thing.
KAREN: Yeah, I don't know what other religions do.
HANNAH: Well, I come from Christianity, and there's probably a lot of different things that people do but I mean really there's no, for me at least there was no ritual until the memorial service or a funeral. And before that just you just do whatever. I don't think there's any other ritual.
KAREN: You grieve on your own.
HANNAH: You grieve on your own. I mean, my parents offered to come be with me, but my world was so turned upside down, I was like, “No, don't come, like what would you even do if you came? I'm just lying in bed.” So I didn't know how to say “yes” to that. But if there was a structure around being alone, where it's like, “Okay, now we do this together,” then that would be different.
KAREN: Yeah, that would have been helpful. How long ago was this?
HANNAH: This was in 2015, so six years ago.
KAREN: So when you said that I pictured it would be during the pandemic because you've just been in your room and having no place to go. But it wasn't…interesting.
HANNAH: Yeah, I guess I just shut myself in my room. I went into other parts of the house too, but I don't know what I would do in other parts of the house. Like, I felt like this caged animal. It was a really scary feeling. And I really did feel like I was all alone. Because physically I was and then even when my mom or my sister, whoever would call to check in, I would answer the phone and I'd be like, “Thanks for calling. But I can't talk right now.” So like, I couldn't do anything with that support either.
KAREN: How long before you could talk about it?
HANNAH: Before I could really, really talk about it, like in depth without sobbing, probably like two years ago was when I was first able to do that. Like I would talk about it, but I would just start crying.
KAREN: Well That's okay.
HANNAH: Yeah, it’s normal. It’s all normal. Yeah, but no, it took me a few years.
KAREN: Was this like your best friend?
HANNAH: She was, yeah, she was like, one of my absolute closest friends.
KAREN: You were about the same age.
HANNAH: Yeah, she was a couple years younger than me. But we were the same age at heart. I don't know. So she honestly felt like the same age as me.
KAREN: So you were like, sisters kind of.
HANNAH: Yeah. In my heart, we were sisters.
KAREN: Yeah, because some of my friends are soul sisters.
HANNAH: Soul, yes, I love that actually. I’ve used that word as well when I refer to a soul sister.
KAREN: You know, I think if your podcast is nothing more than let people know whatever they need to do, they should do. It will be a great service to a lot of people. You know, and whether you believe there's an afterlife or whatever you want to call, there's another dimension that we that we go to or not. As long as you do your best to be with that person while we're here. Then you know, you've been that friend, you know, and if there's regret then you deal with that. You know that's okay, too. And forgive yourself. And forgive them if there's stuff that you left unsaid because a lot of that can happen more when we lose somebody in our own age group, prematurely. You know, you just had harsh words and when they die and you go, oh my god. Well, we just learn to forgive you know, forgive yourself and forgive them, forgive them and move on.
HANNAH: Yeah, I think it is. It must be common for those feelings of regret to come up because it took me years to get over being so angry at myself for never having visited her. It was just because life got busy or whatever, you know, we would talk about visiting and then I didn't and then when I was looking back I was like, oh my god, I was bad friend. I was such a bad friend because I didn't drive up to her. Why didn't I drive up to her and it just was like, driving me insane. And yeah, it's like eventually I just have to forgive myself, you know?
KAREN: Yes, beating yourself up is very normal. That's where forgiveness comes in. I lost an uncle like, when I was 16. And he was actually more a best friend than an uncle. And he got very sick with terrible disease. And I didn't go see him. I couldn't see him in that condition. And for years and years, I beat up on myself that I hadn’t seen him and oh how terrible it was. It's kind of you know, I know what you're talking about. That doesn't serve them and it doesn't serve you. So speaking to your audience: It's really important to grieve however you need to grieve. When you’re ready to forgive, remember to forgive yourself and them. Because there's always stuff that gets left undone.
The more you allow yourself to express it, whether it's journaling, I would think would be really, really nice. I've been journaling for many, many years. But in terms of the grieving process and forgiving process, journaling, get it out of you and onto a piece of paper or you could do it on your phone, you can do it as a recording, but to release whatever it is that's bothering you. And in that process, you'll probably do a lot more forgiving of yourself.
HANNAH: Yeah, it's important to get it out of your body. I feel like I did a lot of journaling and I think it didn't move fully through me until I said it out loud to other people. So I told stories on a stage, which for some reason, I'm more comfortable doing that than having like, a conversation. Sometimes to a group of strangers, I can kind of just be completely vulnerable. And when I did that, and was like “this is how bad it was, y'all, like this is how sad I've been and obviously in more specifics, and like cried and just fully expressed myself. I felt like a different person. It was like 1000-pound weight was lifted from me, because I just needed to share it with someone. But there's so few opportunities to do that. You have to seek them out.
KAREN: You have to do that, you literally have to make those opportunities. Out of all the people in the office that I said “I'm here if you want to talk,” only one really did. One is still in denial. She's not dealing with it at all. And now it's been less than a year. Well less than two years for about six months, they're carrying some of this grief and they're not choosing to let go of it yet. And you don't choose to until you're ready to. For about a month I kept every morning because we do this email in the morning. I offered to talk to them, but most of them did not take me up on it because they weren’t ready.
HANNAH: It takes time. I feel like some for some people.
KAREN: Yeah, for sure.
HANNAH: I think it took me a few years. Of just absorbing it before I could really talk about it.
KAREN: Get it out. Get it out of your body as soon as you can.
HANNAH: Yeah, get it out of your body. If it's crushing you from the inside. Get it out of your body.
KAREN: I do believe I'm very much into alternative health and wellness and I do believe that if we keep it inside it can eventually create disease. And so it's really really important to let our emotions out and not bury things, to keep our heart open. Your body is just a wonderful instrument and it will absorb whatever you need it to. But the healthy ways to make it absorb it and let it out whatever that is writing it, talking to somebody, going to a therapist. Screaming is supposed to be really really good. Crying, laughing like I do. You need to move it out of your body. It's really really important.
HANNAH: Could you tell me a bit about your coaching and what you do?
KAREN: You know, I realized probably about six years ago, but I've been life coaching all my life. When I was in high school, they called me Lulu love, because people would come to me for advice for their dating, it was a natural progression. But you know, people have always come to me for advice. And part of this is because my mother taught me to be a good listener. To make the best life coaches that want to keep their mouth shut and listen. But I think for my life coaching is about listening, and then helping you reflect on what it is that you're looking for, what your life purpose is, where your challenges are to help you discover that. So that's the life coaching.
HANNAH: I love that.