Episode 21: Missing Friends as a Third Culture Kid
HANNAH: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Friends Missing Friends. Today I talked to a good friend of mine named Susy; we met a few years ago in an acting class and just really hit it off – one of my first memories with her is we were waiting “backstage” for our part in a scene, but backstage was a closet, so we were sitting on these cardboard boxes in the dark in a closet and just talking. I think that was the first time I realized we were friends, which is pretty cool to think back on. In today’s conversation she talks about missing friends as a Third Culture Kid; and we talk about how hard it is to make new friends as adults, and how friendships are portrayed in the media. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do too.
HANNAH: When you think of missing or grieving friends, what do you think of in your life?
SUSY: Okay. I've been actually thinking about your podcast and I've been like, trying not to prepare anything because I just want anything that comes up. But honestly every time I thought about it, all the airports I've flown in and flown out of just kept popping up. And for me, I think it's because I've grown up internationally because I've lived in seven countries. Friendships for me have always been very short and very impactful and have left a lot of open wounds. Because in the international world, you are meeting someone who has essentially lived the same lifestyle as you so there's this language that you understand, but also, you know in this relationship with these friends who are from everywhere in the world with different cultures, backgrounds, and really all of it you know, you know that one day you're gonna walk into the school and say, “Hey, I'm moving to Zimbabwe.” Or “I'm moving to Fiji or my dad got X, Y and Z.” And so you know that okay, now we only have a limited amount of time with this person and at first I was like, No, I'm okay. You know, it happens, but then after my third High School in a matter of four years, I was like, this is not normal.
And so I got very good at just saying, “See you later.” I don't really like to say goodbye. And that to me is like my kind of safety net honestly, because it allows me to still grieve a friend that was still obviously alive, but also have the possibility that maybe I'll see them in the future, just maybe. So that that's kind of what pops up.
HANNAH: Yeah, so did you move like every couple of years?
SUSY: Yeah. So when I was younger, we moved every like, four to seven years and then as I got older it became like, four and then two and now I'm an adult, and I have my own life. It's like I've found myself moving to different states. But I do feel like I'm grounding more where I am trying to focus on developing the friendships with folks who are here physically or also who are, like yourself and other friends around the country or international, just trying to continue to maintain that friendship because I do believe that even though you're not physically connected with that person, spiritually and emotionally, people are in your life whether you like it or not.
I have a weird story for you. So like, when I moved to Massachusetts, and it was like, really random, when I moved here, this girl who went to middle school with me in India, her name is Sachi. She reached out to me and I hadn't spoken to her in like 15 plus years, you know? And now we’re friends, like I see her now. We've reunited and we talk and she's an adult now and I'm an adult and we reminisce and she wasn't best friends, super close. But, you know, she's a TCK, a third culture kid, just like me. So she was always coming and going too so the chances of us reuniting now are kind of a miracle, honestly.
HANNAH: That is, like miraculous. Yeah,
SUSY: I mean, it's just surreal. But then there's also a part of me that's like, well, I guess that's what Third Culture kids do. Like we want to reunite. We want to get back with that energy that we had, at least I know I do. Because it's a part of me.
HANNAH: Aww, that’s so sweet you reunited.
SUSY: And it's cool because it's like now we're different people, but we're able to like have an adult friendship that can continue to grow. And not be based on living in India, although we have great memories there. Now she's married. I get to know the partner. It's fascinating. Like people go through so many things and you never know who you're going to reunite with, you know?
HANNAH: Do you feel like your friendship is very different because I know like childhood friendships, and then adult friendships can sometimes be really different, but then sometimes they can be kind of the same.
SUSY: You know, with her, I don't think I've spent enough time to see the difference. But again, I don't really have friends who I've known since middle school and are still really close, I just don't. And that's just my upbringing. So you know, it's interesting because when I'm around folks who are like, “my best friend Betty from kindergarten,” and now they're like getting married and coming to the wedding. I'm like, how do you know someone for that long, you know, and also have a friendship with? I mean, A. How cool is that and B. it's like, well, you guys must be really close because you must have gone through a lot of ups and downs. And for me, I don't think I've had friendships that have lasted long enough in the past, that have been able to withstand friction or arguments or conflicts or disagreements. And so therefore, it's been easier to cut ties versus working through them because, you know, I was younger and they were younger. And what was the point, one of us is leaving, literally the country. But now as an adult, I think it's different.
HANNAH: When I was younger, like middle school, high school, a lot of my closest friends were introduced to me by other adults and I mean, literally, an adult would push us together like sometimes with their hands. Like literally be like, “you guys should meet each other.” “This is Hannah, Hannah this is so-and-so,” like, I needed help that badly. And like, this happened again a few months ago. Like I made a new friend recently, which I always get really excited about whenever I make a new friend, especially as an adult.
SUSY: You should. It's awesome.
HANNAH: It's a huge deal it’s hard to make friends as an adult.
SUSY: Yeah.
HANNAH: And again, an adult was like, “Hannah, You should meet so-and-so,” and I’m like, do I just need help with this?
SUSY: Why is it this circumstance all the time?
HANNAH: Because it's hard for me to make that initial introduction. You know, I'll like literally leave the library and be like, man I should have told the librarian like, “Hey, how's it going?” But saying, “Hey, how's it going” for me is like a big deal. Because I'm so introverted.
SUSY: [laughing] I mean, I feel you I feel you on that like, it's A. awesome they have new friends. Whoever this person is. They're lucky to have you as a friend. Because you're an awesome friend. Yeah, no, I mean that seriously from the bottom of my heart and you are a good one. But B. it isn't easy to be like, hey, “what do you like?” It's not easy. I do it because that's kind of what I had to do growing up internationally, like I had to or else it's like I would be alone. You know? Like, no friends. And my sister was really popular. Like she had tons of friends, like, they knew me as Lexi’s sister. You know, they didn't know me as my name.
I'm like, no, no, no, my name is Susy. You know? That's just how they view me but, I needed to do that. But it's not easy. It's not. And I mean, I made one of my first friends that I made in Chicago when I was there for college. I just moved into the dorms. Didn't really know my roommate. My roommate and I didn’t really vibe that well. So I went to the cafeteria and there was this girl sitting at this table. She looked really cool. She had this huge tattoo that had really nice colors. She was wearing these like Doc Martens. I used to smoke a lot of cigarettes. She had Pall Malls, which are like really old school, you know big. I was like, man, she looks really badass. And I went with my food and no one was around and I asked her I said, “hey, can I sit with you?”
Anyway, she was really sweet. And she was like, “Yeah, of course.” And we sat and then she was like, “Do you smoke?” I was like, “Yes. And I would love one,” and we just became friends. You know, and we don't keep in contact right now. But those little acts of bravery or courage or impulses—follow them, because you never know who you're going to meet or what's about to happen, you know?
HANNAH: And I'm still learning. Sometimes I only follow those impulses after a glass of wine.
SUSY: Or you get home and you're like, dammit, I had so many opportunities. I hear you, I hear you.
HANNAH: And it's also like, I feel like I am pretty good at making friends if I'm in a class with them, like that's how we met, in a class. But as an adult, you're just not in as many classes usually. But this is one of the reasons why I'm always taking a class. Like my acting resume is just all classes. Because I just love taking classes. It's an easy way to meet people. Like what else? I work from home. Am I going to meet someone when I walk on the sidewalk? Like, I honestly don't know.
SUSY: I think the classes are kind of a great idea. Like even if it's like cooking classes or, it's not all acting but as an adult it's your responsibility I think. If you want friends go get them because they're waiting for you.
HANNAH: Earlier when you said like, I know people who are going to weddings with their friends from kindergarten and all this stuff. And that always stirs this emotion deep inside of me. I think it's jealousy. Because I don't have that either. If I reached out to those friends, who I knew when they were in elementary school, middle school, they would be happy to hear from me, but we don’t keep in touch, you know, and I wasn't invited to their weddings, which is fine. It's not like I'm mad about it, but it's just we went separate ways. Every time it's mentioned, whether secondhand or someone's like, “Oh, yes, it's my best friend and we met in kindergarten” and I feel like I'm missing out. I don't know.
SUSY: I can totally relate with that feeling. And I think it is jealousy or envy but it is definitely something that like tugs at a core string. It makes us reflect on like, do I have someone in my life like this person, if I don't, what does that mean about myself? To which also it's like, you have no idea how that friendship is, right? They could be horrible to each other, toxic, not great. And they're just in it just because they think that's what they need to do. Or it could be a really great friendship and then that's something that they have that's really special and really lucky. But it is a painful feeling. Like I don't believe in the word “best friend.” “Best friend?” Come on. That's just not for me. I think it's like everyone has something to offer everybody, why pick one more than another?
HANNAH: I understand. Yeah, no, I get that. I think how I've dealt with my feelings about the word is I just defined it differently. I've talked to some people about this where I see it as like a category rather than a person. So like I could tell 50 people they're my best friend or like one of my best friends. It just means like, they are really good friends.
SUSY: I had a best friend in middle school who I said was my best friend and we were close and then she got a new best friend. And that was really hard. That was really, really hard. She was a really fun friend. I had a ton of fun with her. So yeah, it's I think it's territorial and I think it just puts up walls that don't need to be there.
HANNAH: Yeah no, I definitely feel that. Even like friends changing over the years and I don't even know if the word best friend was used. But like, in third grade, I had this best friend and I'm doing air quotes. And we spent so much time together. When you're that age, like you want to spend every day together. And we were sleeping over at each other’s house like twice a week. Every Wednesday was half day at school, so we would go to the person's house after 12 And then, after third grade, we kind of drifted apart. And then in middle school, we hardly talked at all and then I kind of observed her passing notes with this girl. And they would fold up notes for each other and tuck them in their shoes until they saw each other later. And then they would pull them out and they'd be like really sweaty and they'd exchange them and it was just really intimate and sweet and I was like, man, we used to be really close. And now you're smuggling notes with this girl, and I was like, I'm really sad.
SUSY: I feel like that was the exact same experience I had actually. Like [laughter] they started they started exchanging notes. And it was also kind of like they started dressing the same they started, you know, she would sleep more at her house and then they started developing their own language and then what really hurt was other friends or classmates would be like “where’s Susy?” and she would be like, “I don’t know.” And before it was like, “Oh, she's getting a brownie” or “she'll be right back”, whatever it is, but it was just like this clear dismissal of like, I don't care anymore. Like I get it. Emotions are all over the place, but it's still something that I think everyone remembers in their own days.
HANNAH: Maybe this is just me because I'm super sensitive. I feel like we still carry these wounds with us. And they might be really deep down and really subconscious. But I think that part of me is still sad about all the friends that drifted away over the years even though the drifting away was very natural. Like that's just what happens. And maybe some of it was handled immaturely because of age, but other than that, you know, it just happens. And it was like probably the first time I learned that lesson that people drift apart, like all things one day die, because when you're young you're like everything's eternal, you know? And then you see things in your life die, including relationships for the first time, and then the first ones you will never forget.
SUSY: I agree with all of that. I mean, I do think we do carry those wounds and we do grieve those middle school losses or elementary or whatever it is like, that's part of being human. And also that's what we still do now as an adult and what we're going to do when we're like 80. But I think it's important to allow that grief because you know, even though they're still out there, you did have great memories and you laughed probably those laughs where you don't hear anything. Those are the best. You know, I'm talking about when you're laughing and there's no sound coming out for like 30 minutes. Like those are the best, I love those. You know, that's when you had fart jokes. At least I did, you know? They’re good memories. They’re really good memories.
HANNAH: Did you happen to see the show PEN15?
SUSY: No.
HANNAH: [gasp] Okay. We need to have a watch party on Hulu, oh my god, I think you would like it. It's very awkward. Which is my favorite.
SUSY: It totally is, you love awkward.
HANNAH: I love awkward, I think it’s cause I’m like, that’s me! I’m not alone. [laughs] And this show’s about two women who are friends and they’re in middle school. And one of the hilarious layers of the show is that literally the actors are 30 years old and they are playing 13 year olds. And they just stand hunched over with retainers and it kind of works. Anyway, so the whole show is just about this friendship and they’re extremely close. Like they do everything together. And they make each other promise like you can't have your first kiss without me. You can't have your first cigarette without me, like everything we do we have to do together. And then as the show goes on, they're learning that's impossible.
And you know, they kind of feel themselves pushing and pulling and drifting apart. Anyway, last season of the last episode, this won't ruin anything for you, but I cried so hard, because they were kind of learning that yeah, maybe this friendship won't last forever. And they were like, what if we go to different colleges, and then we live in different states and we marry get married and have kids and like, we don't have time to see each other? And they just kind of looked at each other. And then they went “ORRRRR we’ll live in a house together, leave the house and then we'll have the same job and then every night we’ll watch a movie,” and then it got more and more crazy and they were like “and then we would jump up and hang up in the cloud above the house and then talk with the angels,” and they were so happy making this fantasy future because they knew that this wouldn't be forever. And I was just like, bawling. It's so moving. I highly recommend that show.
SUSY: I want to check that out. That's so interesting, because for me, I just don't feel like I can fully relate. Maybe I haven't seen the show. So I can't say 100% but I don't think I've ever had a friend that close that I was like, what if we don't give birth at the same time? I've never had that where I was like, what if we don't like go to the same college, or anything like that. It's good to have a show about friendships. I think there should be more. That's why we love Broad City. I mean, come on, that last season, Ilana’s staying, what's going to happen? It's hard, it's like the reality kicks in of like, this might not be forever, nothing's forever.
HANNAH: Yeah and I agree with you. I don't think I've quite been in the same boat as these girls. And I think that they do have it in the extreme in this show. Because I don't think it's necessarily typical for people to be this close for this long. Because they were close since they were like, five or something is the whole premise. I watched an episode with my sister and at the end, I was so sad. And she was like, Why are you so sad? And I was like because I don't have what they have. And it was almost like I felt like I should have it, you know, but it's just like, not everyone has it. In fact a lot of people probably don’t, where they have someone where they do everything together.
SUSY: I think we live in this world now where it's like, we don't talk about this stuff. Like I can tell you that 100% that there are people, more than we think, who are lonely as shit. And have nobody and are so confused and are like isolating, and isolating, and that breaks my heart. And whenever I moved to a new country, and then I stayed there for a year, whatever. And then there was a new kid, I would always invite that kid. Always, like “come sit with us,” it's fine. Because they would sit alone, and I could see it. I could see the tray I could see the anxiety spinning. I could see all of it. And I was like, I don't want them to go through that. Because that's an awful experience. Being like, “Where do I sit?” Like that's real. You know? But it is important to talk about feeling like you don't have a friend or feeling like you don't have someone who you can start building something off with. It is sad. Of course it's sad. You know, I wish more people had more friends.
HANNAH: I love everything you just said and first of all, one thing I've learned and that amazes me and it shows why what you did is such an amazing gift, is that it only takes one person to take you from being completely alone to belonging. One person, even if you're in a cafeteria full of people, one person says “sit next to me” and all of a sudden, you belong. So that's beautiful that you did that and I really want to try harder at that. Because sometimes I'm so shy that I am bad at even being nice to other people who are also shy, but I should just get over that.
Secondly, you were talking about loneliness. I have so many feelings about loneliness, because it's such a huge problem. And it's also possible to feel lonely even if you have so many people. A lot of times I’m like, what is it that's making me feel lonely right now? And I think part of it is literally being alone; I have roommates but we live parallel lives, not intertwined lives.
Being around them is amazing and we hang out and everything, but we still have our separate lives. And I feel like that feeling of loneliness will always be there unless I have with someone, an intertwined life. And I don't necessarily know what that means. But I think that's why a lot of people want to be in a romantic relationship. And I know there's a lot of reasons to want that. We think part of it is that you're literally building a life together. And in our nuclear family society, that's the main way you do that. Unless you live at home with your you know, extended family, you get in a relationship and there might be a period of time where kind of like the Friends show you live with your friends. But that show ended with all of them finding a romantic partner and leaving. So it's like, Oh, is living and having your friends intertwined in your life just biding time until you find your romantic partner?
SUSY: That's a great question.
HANNAH: It just really bothers me that that's like, how our society is set up and I came to the conclusion recently I was like, man, if I don't find a romantic partner, I'll kind of be alone. On a day to day daily basis, I’ll have lunch alone and I’ll have dinner alone. Like that kind of alone.
SUSY: Wow, you're tapping into some awesome stuff. It's so funny I have a lot of thoughts about what you said because this is gonna sound weird, but you remind me a lot of my mom when she was a lot younger because my mom never got married. She was alone, just physically alone, you know? Until she adopted my sister and I, you know. But for her she made it a huge effort to keep friends I mean, every country I go she made really good friends or even here in the States. You know, people reach out “Oh I’m Connie’s friend”, like, who are you? I don't know, and they want to hang out. It's great. But I think she's an exception because she went international and she did what she wanted to do, but for the United States, Andrew and I have been thinking so much about how society has built this step by step thing that you have to do in order to be what looks happy.
You know, what do you do, you get in a relationship. No, you go to high school, then you go to college, then you get in relationship and you get married and have kids and then you are so miserable and you never have sex again. And then you die. [laughter]
HANNAH: [laughs] That’s one of the steps?!
SUSY: But I bring this up because I'm gonna bring it back to friends, is that I think a lot of people aren't aware of that or it's in their unconscious or they're so hungry or they're so in desperate need of some kind of connection, some kind of validation that they're alive. That some settle. Some settle even though they don't know what they're settling for. Right? And I think for you, Hannah, it's like you're this amazingly sensitive person. You take things in, big or small, and you take them in with the same amount of force and impact that I think you're able to be aware of that. Like, why is society pressing these things, even though no one's like, directly “where’s your partner?”. Unless there's someone at your door every day being like, “Where is he?” I don't think that's the case, but you do feel pressure.
HANNAH: I think part of it might be like, we learn so much, probably too much from movies and TV shows. And we think that that is a reflection of life, but it's not necessarily and I realized so many movies and TV shows when there's a female protagonist, her “crisis” is when she loses a job and loses her boyfriend. And then the show or movie ends happily when she gets a better job, and a better boyfriend or husband. And that's teaching us like, your life is dogshit if you don't have these things, because they're always so sad and depressed and, you know, sad orchestra music and it's like, Oh my God, like she wants to die.
There was this one movie. I don't remember what it was, but she was single, which like, it's not that crazy, to be single. And so she would eat her dinner leaning over the kitchen sink because she didn’t have anybody to eat dinner with, so I'll just eat it really quickly over the kitchen sink. And I’m like, “just sit down at dinner!”. Like you think you're that worthless, that you can't even enjoy food when you're alone? I mean, I feel like those little things. If I was young and I saw that scene, I wouldn't have clocked it as messed up.
SUSY: But it so is.
HANNAH: Yeah. What we've been talking about is relevant because the lack of media about really deeply diving into friendships and mostly focusing on romantic relationships is part of why we feel that pressure towards romantic relationships as the most important thing, which don't get me wrong—they are very important, but like if you don't have it that doesn't mean you're broken or something's missing. You can still have so many amazing relationships in your life. And I feel like we're being told that you're broken and something's missing. And, yeah, that's why this is why I'm drawn to the shows and movies that actually focus on the friendships. That's why I love Broad City, PEN15, Fleabag, Bend It Like Beckham. And I'm sure there are many others but I'm just talking about percentage wise, there are not enough.
SUSY: Which is honestly like when you told me about your podcast, Friends Missing Friends, great title, I was just like, there needs to be more of this because we all have had a really good friend in our life at one point. Everyone has. Or even if they don't want to call him a friend, they've had someone who's been there, you know? And if it's not romantic, who cares? Bullshit, that person is a person and you guys experienced something incredible and why not talk about it? You know, there has to be more of that.