Episode 5: My Best Friend Katie
Hannah: I don't know if you wanted to speak to kind of your experience with grieving friends throughout your life.
Alex: Absolutely. Sure. Well, thank you for inviting me to be here to talk about this. It may not be an easy topic to talk about, but I do have a fondness for the topic. If for no other reason, then I personally find it comforting to talk about my friends who have passed. Because I miss them, and I think it's sort of special to have an opportunity to specifically have a conversation about that.
So thank you for having me here. I as I know I've mentioned to you before, I am in my 40s and I have lost probably close to two dozen friends, and some were friendly acquaintances and some ranging from friendly acquaintances all the way to like besties.
And the prominent one, if you will, would be my best friend Katie, who was my college roommate. We were assigned to a, randomly from the university, to be roommates, and always sort of looked back at that as like the universe. You know, putting his hand in and saying you two, yeah.
So that was in 1998. That No, I graduated in 98, 1993 that we were put together and then she died in a car accident In 2000 and, Gosh, my math here 2003 I believe it was. Or 2002 is the point being that it's you know, been a handful of years at this point 18 or 19 years. And I still actively miss her. Yeah, I still it was obviously devastating. When she went we again were roommates and then chose to be roommates again, the second year of college, and then just stayed in touch all up until I talked to her the week before she died.
And you know, I’d visit her when I go back to Wisconsin, she came out to visit me in Colorado, where I moved after college. And when she left the physical world not only was it like a crushing, you know realization that she was gone, but I also felt the very acute loss of all those shared memories. She was like the only other person who held the other side of so man he, I mean, you know, countless nights in our dorm room and whatever, just in college. And I am grateful to have a pretty solid handle on many of them. With, I've always been an avid picture taker so I have tons of you know, photographs and Katie and I were also in the habit of writing notes to one another when you know “went to study for Poli-Sci I'll be back by 5:30,” and I have her handwriting and I have all those notes. As you know, some may call it a hoarding. I call it memory keeping.
But I do I feel fortunate to have what I have, but I know that so much of it left when she did. Yeah, And then just through as I've gotten older I've lost. I had a stretch just a few years ago where I lost one friend a year to cancer and the third year in a row, I just I sort of, you know, kind of tongue in cheek kind of laughed with my husband like, I can see why people might not want to be friends with me. Just they keep going.
And it's hard. You know, it's hard and it's also I don’t wanna to say it gets easier the more you do it. But there is something to that. Like you had you know, you when you lose somebody and it's your first somebody. There's a lot of anger and bewilderment and just all sorts of things mixed in with the grief. And then as it you know, and I remember speaking to my grandmother about the same kind of thing too, because obviously, if you're lucky enough to live to an old age, you will with increased you know, frequency lose people. And I remember her saying honey, you're just so young to have this be happening. Like this is something my generation you know, has more experience with, but the more often that it happens you are able almost to bring joy into the grief.
It's a little bit personally anyway, I have found I've been able to balance that a little bit more. It's less about like, why did they leave and you know, shaking your fist at the heavens or whatever. And more about, oh, how lucky I was to know them. They were only here for those, you know, few decades really which is the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of time. And I was lucky enough to spend time like you know, I was fortunate enough to know them.
I’ve really adopted sort of that being my, you know my chosen response to news like that. You always have a reaction. And then you have a response. And the reaction is just what it's going to be and there's no you know, harm or foul or anything wrong that can come from that. But then again, it's the response that you do have a little bit more control over and that is something that I have found.
Hannah: Well thank you so much for sharing all of that. And also, I'm so sorry for your losses. I really am.
Alex: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
Hannah: Yeah, thank you for talking about it. Because I think it's I don't know it's hard to talk about it. It's hard to find people to talk about it with. And I love what you said about having a reaction and a response. And is it the response that you can decide or is it the reaction that you can decide?
Alex: the response.
Hannah: the response okay, yes.
Alex: The reaction is like your initial you know, how you were your, what is it, your reactions are based upon like your first five years of life, what you how you were conditioned how you were raised. And then your responses are can be learned. That's what you decide to do with what you've grown into, or who you've grown into.
Hannah: Wow, that's fascinating. Now, I'm wondering how I was raised in my first five years.
Alex: Yeah, well, and it has, you know, a lot obviously to do with whoever raised you, but not entirely. It's also the world and the society and the things you saw on the street and the things you know, heard on the radio. I mean, it's everything. It's like, yeah.
Hannah: That's crazy. I was listening to—very, very short tangent here. I was listening to Glennon Doyle's podcast. Yes, I love her. It's called we can do hard things. And they mentioned how a lot of times when kids like fall or something, we go, you're okay. You're okay. You're okay. And then in a way that can train them to like, they're actually hurting, whether it's physical or emotional, and they're being trained to, like, ignore that and be like, I'm okay. And or You're fine, you're fine. And so they're saying that we always say, I'm fine. I'm fine when we're like, not fine.
I feel like I do that to myself too. And I think I think you can definitely relate to grief as well, because just, I don't know. At least in the society, that I've witnessed and am a part of, it's like, you just kind of have to be fine pretty quickly, or at least seem fine. You know, so that other people are comfortable.
Alex: Well, yeah, I think you know, grief, talked about grief is universal and highly personal. And we all go through grieving, but rarely are we doing it at the same time. And even if we, you know, even if you and I both lose someone equally important to us, we each had individual relationships. And so it's still going to be a personal response and reaction. And that can be really difficult for other people to swallow. It can be even harder for other people to hold. And it I think it's sort of like a, like a balance between you know, I'm grieving. I don't need you to hold my grief. But I do need you to hold space for my grief. There's a difference and I think a lot of people feel like it's one in the same. Like, if you're sad, I have to be sad.
And it is kind of one of those things that they want people to hurry through because it can be difficult to relate to. It can bring up their own, you know, trigger their own maybe not so great grief memories, either of being sad of something from their past or wishing they'd handled something differently around grief. Like I said holding just holding the space, like there's room for you to be sad and us to have a perfectly pleasant time together. It doesn't have to be or you know, room for me to be sad and I'm not going to just be Eeyore you know around about it. And I don't need to bring everybody down. But that doesn't have to be the case.
Yeah, it's hard because I, I don't know, I think there were times where I was Eeyore, especially in the very beginning, because the very beginning is like yeah, so much. It's so overwhelming and you can't be anyone except for Eeyore or at least I couldn't because I was also like so in shock. I was like what is happening? Like, what the heck, like my world just like turned upside down. I totally was a bummer to around, but like, I don't know, I hope I'm able to give space to other people when they're in that space because I think it is really hard to understand that and like be around it.
Alex: Well that's why I think these conversations are so important. Yeah, holding here is that it's really giving a voice to the experience. You know, not only in the sense of grief isn't linear, it bounces you know, all over the place, but it's always it's always most intense right on the onset of news, especially news that changes your world and especially news that rocks your world. And I think that there's I think you're right. I think that a lot of times, people try to hurry us through those really sticky, you know, achy, kind of Eeyore moments, perhaps, you know and well intention. I'm sure you know everybody's like Oh I hurt for you. Come to the light come let's be you know, your cheerful and happy and what I was saying earlier, like let's be remember how blessed we were to have known the person or whatever that can be like, I don't want to hear that. I am in a I'm in. I'm in the darkness. I'm in it. Yeah. And knowing right, it's not permanent. I don't I don't live here now. But yeah, like I have set up camp.
Hannah: Feels like it's gonna be forever.
Alex: Gonna be here for a minute. And but I think it is important to also be able to look back and to say, that was a stage and there's not a set, you know, so that when someone else is in it, and it feels like they're never leaving. They can kind of know in the back of their head that it it's a stage that you will, because there's relief in that kind of moving past that part of it. But that doesn't mean you need to hurry. You need to be there as long as you are there.
Hannah: Yeah, I I'm wondering like, I'm curious if you experienced grief, differently in any way when friends passed away rather than with the family members or other people. Like how that was different for you?
Alex: Yeah, for sure. For personally for me, I tend to, when I lose family, when I have lost family members, I go into like an empathetic grief. Where oh my god, my grandpa died. Oh, grandma. Or oh my other grandma died. Oh, dad. Like I'm so sorry for your loss. That's like been my reaction. My whole life. Like how is this power you know, kind of thing. And then second hand almost Right, right. And I lost my grandpa. Right, right. I lost my grandma.
But with friends, my grief is like my own first, even though they also you know, or losing or have, you know, husbands or wives or kids or parents or siblings.
I feel like I'm in like a web with my family. Right? I have I don't necessarily have relationships with my friends’ husbands or wives or kids or parents.
Hannah: Right, You don't know them in that same way.
Alex: Right. I still feel you know, terribly for them at one of my one of my college friends who died of cancer. I flew from Colorado back to Wisconsin for her service, and I had met her husband before but I didn't. I didn't have like a working friendship with him as it were. And when I saw him, I started to cry, you know, saying hi to him. And he just was like, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that today. No. And like shut down my tears. And then I didn't have room. I was like, trying to be all joyful, even though it was sadness that was bubbling up.
Hannah: I have feelings about that because for one I understand where he's coming from. It was just like he couldn't you know, handle it in the moment and I respect that. And I also at that, like, I think that's one of my worst fears. As someone who grieves friends is for my grief to cross a boundary and upset partners and family who kind of have first claim as it were, right? Yeah. And I think that's what I was talking to my friend about grieving friends. And we were both having that experience and she was like, Yeah, I realized that like my when I grieve my friend, it's very small. It's behind closed doors. It's only I only talk to a with my mutual friends with that person. And you know, cuz we don't want to just, I don't know, it's like, we're unsure if we can have ownership of it. And it makes sense that there's a time and a place. But I don’t know, I just think it's very complicated.
Alex: I agree with you. I agree with you. There is something about saying okay, my friend has passed I am going to work to embody all the parts about her that I loved the most. And therefore she'll live on in me.
Hannah: Oh, I love that so much that made me teary because I think, so I feel like my friendship with Lauren, who's my friend who passed away. I don't know I have this personality trait where when I get close to someone I kind of take on some of their maybe mannerisms a little bit or like you know, she was really goofy so I would be more goofy and so her personality already infiltrated mine before she passed away, like that was just kind of freed up that part of me because she was so like free-spirited. And I was like, Oh, I can be like the and just I was like learning from her, you know? And then what after she first passed away, I was like, Oh my God, I've lost like, not only did I lose her, I lost the part of me that was her. And I was like, Am I ever gonna get back like, I don't know. That was a little. That was like a whole other layer of grief. I was like, I really liked who I was with her. You know, she like made me this version of myself that I don't know, I liked even better.
You know, she enhanced me if that makes sense. Yeah. And it's like when that person passes away. It's like that does live on but I think there was initially a fear that it disappeared too, which doesn't really follow logic. But it's also because the parts of me that were joyful and goofy and I, How can you be joyful and goofy when you're the depth of despair? Of course, you know? But it took me a long time to kind of get that back, I think.
Alex: I see 100% for how that could happen. Because even, if especially if you were joyful and goofy with her more so than you were in other relationships or avenues or pockets of your life, I can totally see how that would initially seem as though that had been closed off to you then. Versus right with time maybe being able to understand like she showed me what I already have inside of me right we understand as we get older that we only recognize things in other people because we have them in us. And so she didn't give you any personality traits. She just was a conduit to wake up what you already possess. And it's sort of, you know, like people say, Oh, soulmate, soulmate. I'm looking for my soulmate. I personally believe that there are, you know, dozens, if not hundreds of people on this earth. Who are going to speak to my soul. And I happen to be married to one, but if for whatever reason he ever went away, I don't think that's like, Well, that was the one of 7 billion people, y’know?
Yeah. And I think friendships can be beautiful like that, too. It was special. No doubt about it, and it doesn't take anything away from the bond. Like if something were to happen to my husband and I were to go on and marry someone else and have a beautiful relationship with them. It doesn't lessen the connection my husband and I have. In fact, would, you know, it would be well I loved marriage so much with him like you loved being friends so much. That you went out did it again. You taught me how good it can be! Sort of a weird analogy to be making, but I truly without like even a second of hesitation, I truly believe that there are other, and you may already have found you.
You may be like yeah, no, but there are other friends who will bring up those same playful, Goofy, joyful qualities in you because those belong to you. And it was, you know, Lauren was an indicator. She was one of those like special like, those zip, those parts of you and parts of her connected, and now that she has passed like to what I was saying earlier, now you can embody those parts that you loved about her no. One of the parts that you loved about her and you bring that into the world now. And then she lives on through you. And the world gets to know her goofy, playful, joyful spirit. Because you're showing us. Your writing, right like you. I told you and I read your draft. I felt like I felt it. I could tell that Lauren was special. I could tell that Lauren was joyful. And I never would have known that had it not been for you.
And so there is there in my opinion, there's so much power in keeping friends who have gone like at the tip of our tongue, and involved in our stories. And you know, to this day Katie's, my Katie's been gone for decades now and for this day, oh God would Katie love that. Oh, like I still she's still right there. And I also just assume, again, without like a second of hesitation, that she's on the other side of whatever the veil is. And she's still looking out for me. And I just have her pulling from that side now. So when I've gone through hard times, I still talk to her. I still you know, thank her when things go my way. Yeah, I hear songs I all the time and I'm like, Oh, she's here. She's here.
Hannah: Thank you for sharing that. That's so special. I can relate to that, too. I still text Lauren a lot. Not like every day but every few months, you know, I'll send her a text. And it's so strange because I had like thrown out my old phone like very shortly before she passed away just happened to, so I don't have a single text from her. So my entire text stream in my phone is just me. And it's like kind of devastating because I don't know, it's just like, it makes it feel even more one-way it's very strange, but I don't know that's just one way that I still talk to her or sometimes I'll like you know, say talk out loud to her or a lot of times would think like oh man she would love that or something. What happened? And I'm like, Ah, like, I wish I could tell her this and see her reaction because she would have been the first person I told. Like, is the camp summer camp we went to together, you know, a lot of the things we would talk about is the people that were at camp with us and what they were doing now, because that was the people we had in common.
And I'll hear things about some people who went to camp, you know, whatever. Maybe they something wonderful happened and they got married or they had a baby or anything. And I'm like, Oh, I wish I could talk to Lauren about this, you know? But I love the, I also believe that that her presence is there. And like you were saying yesterday when we talked, I think you said like it's hard to know like what the name for that is like for some people they call it heaven or the other-side or whatever. But I do believe in that. And I think a lot of that is because I want to believe it. I want it to be true so badly. You know?
Alex: Well sure, and honestly like I said yesterday, any every major religion, everybody who has an idea that we're all guessing these are all best guesses. And so there really isn't the way I see it. There isn't any reason not to believe if it makes you feel better. Right if it's a comforting thought. There's nothing that says thoughts of it are only supposed to be sad or thoughts that are only supposed to be you know empty or anything like that. Like it's an interesting that's like a life philosophy in general. Like Do what makes you happy, design your life to be something that supports you and hold you and lift you up. And if it like for you like for me like for you, if It feels good to believe that your friend's presence is right there. Like right there over your shoulder. Why the heck not?
And I like to think that it would be the case that Katie and I would still just be thick as thieves to this very day if she was still on Earth. But that hasn't. I'm not thick as thieves with every person I've ever been friends with. You know, we've talked a little bit about this how sometimes losing a friend just means that you're not friends anymore. They don't die but you still grieve the friendship and you still be the absence of them in your life.
But it breaks my heart to think that maybe we would have grown apart as the years have gone by. But I have now I'm getting a little emotional. I have the blessing of having been her best friend for a period of time. And like that's nobody can take that ever away. Because that's where we left things on extraordinarily good close terms. You know the last words we said to each other where I love you love you. Like she knew I loved her. I knew she loved me.
And so again, it's almost like no matter what anybody else has to say about me. I have Katie.
Hannah: Yeah, of course. I know we've talked a little bit about the book Signs by Laura Lynn Jackson. Have you experienced any signs and you can only share if you want to?
Alex: Oh, yeah. The answer is yes. I mean, I Yes, a million times over and, trying to think if I have like a really juicy one just the tip of my memory here to share. But you know, the afore mentioned songs that come on and not even just like, Well, yeah, you've been listening to the radio for 48 straight hours. It's not like that, like those sorts of songs where you walk into like, you know, a boutique and over the music comes like an obscure song from the early 90s When you were in college that only you and her knew or whatever. I have experienced all kinds of signs. Left and right over and over since from her and from other friends as well. I have signs and symbols that represent different friends for me, and they show up all the time.
The night after Katie died. I was in my apartment in Boulder, Colorado. And I was having kind of one of those screaming sessions that you were alluding to earlier. I mean, my roommate wasn't home. I don't know what the neighbors thought if anything at all. But I was like, you know, part of my language I was losing my shit. Like I was just soooooobbing. And I had a very, very, very distinct feeling. Now let me preface this as well and back up just a little bit to say that Katie and I would often talk about how we were convinced we have known each other in a different life. And we would try to figure out how we been connected in the past life. And we would have conversations about when we die whoever dies first. Let's come up with a way, like come to my grave side and have a drink. And if you hear a bird call, like we used to come up with these conversations, but now I have not been, I haven't tested the theory. I haven't gone to her graveside with a drink and listened for a bird. But we were very connected on the topic, put it that way like, it was a favorite of ours to kind of just like what does come next and you know what is the afterlife like and so on and so forth.
So back to that night in my apartment in Boulder, Colorado and home alone in my bedroom, I’m crying crying crying crying crying. I put my hand on the door to go to leave my room to go down the halls to the bathroom is like I couldn't turn it, like not like it was locked like my body froze. And how Hana like with God as my witness. I stood there thinking to myself, she's on the other side of this door. And I said out loud, Katie, I can't handle seeing you right now. Like if I open this door and I see you I'm gonna like flip out but I felt her like I felt the door handle like I said it had like a heaviness to it, my arm felt like a heaviness to it. And I stood there and had to speak to her out loud and I open the door and of course she wasn't there. But she was there. I also heard her speaking in my ear at her funeral. Really? I did. I was standing there and I would have expressed already I went effusive crier and sometimes it just takes over and I have trouble turning it off. But I wore like Katie and I were like little hippie girls together and I wore like a patchwork bright, colorful dress to her service. Her parents didn't know I was coming until I arrived and her mother wept with joy she was like I didn't know how to get in touch with you. I wasn't sure if you were gonna hear, I got there and I'm standing at the Pew at the service and Katie was a free spirit. Okay, Katie was a little bit badass and at you know was raised in a church but didn't necessarily subscribe. And I would feel like the tears like the kinds of tears that start in your gut and like work their way up to your throat and like your body's kind of starting to come over. I’d feel those coming and I would hear her in my ear going, “what is that going to change?”
And it would stop me. And when I get crying like that. I like snot running down my face, like people looking over kind of embarrassed for me like that is it definite like it wasn't something I was wanting to have happen at her funeral. And I don't have an on button or an off button for it usually. But her, it was It wasn't even just like a critical Gremlin voice being like, don’t embarrass yourself right? It wasn't like my mother or anything. It was Katie's voice and it was right over my right ear. Saying honey what is that gonna change? Just breathe. And I was able to kind of keep it together. Yeah, I'm a big believer in signs.
Hannah: I am too. I yeah, I didn't know or think much about them to be honest until Lauren passed away. And I never heard her voice and I never saw her I think I've even also said out loud please don't show up. It would I would scare the shit out of me. Yes, come to me in other ways, please. Something metaphorical. Yeah, but like closer to the beginning there were definitely more but I remember a few weeks after she passed. I was leaving work and I was crying. And then a butterfly flew up and landed on my cheek for like a split second and then flew away and it was like it was like a little kiss and then it is what it felt like. And so that was really special because it was also the timing and that's what she says in the book is like a lot of it is the timing. That makes it feel really special. And then another one was a scene in my manuscript that you read, but where my phone was buzzing.
Alex: I love this story.
Hannah: And I'm so glad it's like I don't tell everyone because some people might like be like, Well, that was just your phone being weird, you know? But yeah, it was like the New Year's Eve. I was hating New Year's Eve because it was just, it just kind of renewed my sadness, because I'm like, well, here's another year that she won't see. You know, I'm just getting older. whoop dee doo. And I was on a train to go to a party and I was like, I don't want to go. And then like my phone started buzzing like Morse code almost. It was so bizarre and I just picked it up and I was like, Lauren? And then it was like, like, it just like went absolutely berserk. And I was like, Oh my God. And I was just sitting on the train like, talking to my phone. Like, asking it questions like, Are you okay? Like are you at peace? And it would respond, it would like, wait, and listen. That's my question. Then it would respond and then it would wait, listen. And I remember being really frustrated because I was like, I know you're saying things but I don't know what you're saying. Like it was like you know, like burburburburuburrr, I can't understand it. And so that was like so frustrating. And then it went quiet. And I got off the train and it kind of panic because I was like, Oh my gosh, it's been quiet. And I pulled out my phone and I was like, Lauren, please don't leave me Please don't leave me. And then it went. In my head I heard: I'm still here.
Alex: And I just heard I love you.
Hannah: Ooooh. I didn't even think of that.
Alex: I mean, it could, you know.
Hannah: It could be a lot of different things.
Alex: It could be a lot of different things.
Hannah: Awww.
I would like to hear a little bit about your soul fitness coaching business.
Alex: Sure. So I started soul fitness years ago, handful of years ago, at this point. And it really is the idea, sort of taking care can take care of your physical body and you can take care of your mental your physical health and your mental health. And the soul is sort of a sort of like the emotional component of that. But I also liken it to taking care of your breath. The breath is something that you know, we breathe without thinking about it. And your breath is a tool. It's you know, self-care has kind of become a buzzword in the past however many years but that doesn't make the need for it any less real. And your breath is one of the foundational pieces of self-care. And over the years, soul fitness really has evolved to it's helping people design lives that they love living, because I believe that's available to everybody. It has a lot to do with empowering your mindset. It has a lot to do with habituating the way you care for yourself on a daily basis, also known as self-care. And the final component is I help people get organized. So I'm really good at dotting the I's and crossing the t's. So whether that's your home organization, or your schedule, or your work environment. Soul fitness really means kind of getting a handle on your mindset, the way you care for yourself, and what your actual physical environment is reflecting to you.
Hannah: That sounds awesome.
Alex: I just I really appreciate the opportunity to spend this time thinking about Katie and Shelley and Monica and Christina and Ian and you know all my buddies that get to be here with us right now because we spoke their name. And Lauren. And Lauren. So thank you.