Episode 40 & 41 - Flipping the Script: Jaymie interviews me!

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HANNAH: Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Friends Missing Friends. Today is going to be a little different; instead of me interviewing someone else, my friend Jaymie is interviewing me. Thought it would be interesting to flip the script a bit. And yes, it’s the same Jaymie who I interviewed previously and who I met over Zoom in 2021 during the pandemic; Definitely go back and listen to that episode, it’s super fun.

So – today, you’ll learn a bit more about my story, why I started this podcast, and a big question I’ve been struggling with over the years after Lauren’s death which is: “was our friendship even real?” I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jaymie.

JAYMIE: I wanted to just share that I'm really excited to have some time with you today. I'm so excited to hear more about your story. From what I know about Hannah, I've gotten to know her over the past. Oh my gosh, how long has it been here and a half, two years?

HANNAH: Yeah, something like that.

JAYMIE: And so I just am so excited to hear more about this podcast, about your Friends Missing Friends initiative and just to spend some time talking about it. So to get us started, I'm wondering if you can share with us the premise behind Friends Missing Friends, for those that might not have heard the backstory just yet.

HANNAH: Yeah, thank you so much. Oh, my gosh, that was so sweet. Yeah, so the premise behind Friends Missing Friends is several years ago, I lost a really, really, really close friend. She passed away suddenly. And I really struggled to find a sense of community within that grief.

I think deep down I didn't even realize it but I wanted to find peers, other people whether or not they were my age, I would have liked some of them to be my age, who had gone through a similar experience a similar loss, and in my experience at grief groups no one else there had lost a friend and it did feel a bit isolating. My whole goal was to create a community of people who are grieving and missing friends, which is and we're all friends too, which is why it's called Friends Missing Friends because I want to be friends with all of you, with everyone. So yeah, that's kind of was the idea behind it. And it's going to start with this podcast and I have these grand visions of what it can grow into. And the grand visions are very overwhelming, but I'm going to take it one tiny baby step at a time.

JAYMIE: Baby tiny steps, you know I think what I hear you saying, right, and what I know of your experience so far has been that you basically found in your own experience of what you were going through a gap for support that you were looking for, that you didn't find in the world. Right so I think that idea that there was an unmet need that you are now filling, I think is just, I just I think it's really cool.

Did you feel like an unmet need or did you feel like you were doing a comparison of like, well, I miss my friend, but she wasn't my daughter and she wasn't my sister. And so like there was almost like an invalidation of the amount of grief because of your connection or your association.

HANNAH: Oh, my gosh, ab-so-freaking-lutely. And I just, like I can't say “absolutely” enough, because that was one of my biggest struggles and my grief was I was invalidating my own grief. Without even realizing it, subconsciously. And I think a lot of it was because of subliminal messages that the world was sending me, which was that friends are not as important as family and romantic partners. And not even just in grief but just in general. Right, like, growing up. I was taught by mostly like the media and movies and TV and things like that, that finding a husband was one of the most important things I'll ever do in my life. And that a man will complete me because I will be incomplete without him. And yeah, so messages like that and not getting the same messages about friends and not having as many movies and TV shows that revolves around a deep friendship. There's been a lot more lately, but growing up, there weren't as many I don't think, a lot of it was romance. And that just kind of subliminally taught me that this is not as important. So because of that, my grief was not as important.

And especially in American society, I can't really speak to other societies because I don't know, but I do think that our grief traditions of funerals and memorial services and everything do revolve around the family and their romantic partner. And I'm not saying that that's wrong. Like that makes sense. It does and that you know, they would sit in the front and they would plan it and everything. And it's like, yeah, and because I'm learning that two things can be true, right? That there's nothing wrong with that. And, where can I put my grief? Where do I fit in here? Do I even own my grief? Am I allowed to talk about it as openly as the family members are talking about it or does that step on them in some way, does that cross some boundary?

And I've talked to a lot of people who feel the same way. They were scared to kind of express their grief fully because they didn't know what boundaries would be crossing. So that's something that I'm still grappling with and I found out I'm not the only one who's grappling with that. So even just realizing that I'm not the only one has been huge.

JAYMIE: I feel like that must be so validating. And I think it makes a lot of sense, right? That it's very, in physics, we call like the first thought that you come to a lizard brain. And like your lizard brain tells you, you know, things about angular velocity and things like that, that are not part of this conversation. But my point there is the big idea about things being not mutually exclusive. That two things can be true at the same time. And they don't diminish one another. They're just both true. I think that that is so huge, and I hope it extends. Has it extended for you more grace? In the process of what it is, what grief is and what moving through grief is.

HANNAH: Oh, yeah, I mean, I'm kind of surprised at myself. I'm now 30. I'm just now really being able to hold two things at once, and accepting that two things can be true without cancelling each other out. I'm like just learning that, it kind of blows my mind that it took me that long, but yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

JAYMIE: I think the other piece that you kind of called it, the American messages that we receive about grief and processing it and I’m not an expert, but in my own experience and in observing it in my life. I definitely can share that it's complex in how people roll through their emotions and those chemical processes that are happening inside their bodies. And whether they are processing it or shoving it down, right? It all manifests for us differently. And I think I always picture that like, I don't know the Instagram poster, the pictorial right, the visual of grief being a cycle. And at least in my own experience it has never looked like “here's the stages and it's linear,” right? It's like, I don't know, when Tumbleweed meets spaghetti meets like just a shitstorm. Like you're up, you're down. You're sideways. It's horrible. You're doing better, like six months later you're back to day one. Can you speak a little bit about what your grief looked like and how it is that you started to negotiate and process through it?

HANNAH: Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. So that was another thing I learned recently is that the stages are not really true.

JAYMIE: Like that's such a shit like, “here’s stage one,” like it's very straightforward and not messy.

HANNAH: Yeah, so actually. From what I researched, the woman who came up with it, Elisabeth Kubler Ross—

JAYMIE: Sorry, Elizabeth Kubler Ross. You over simplified it for me, sorry.

HANNAH: They have been misinterpreted over the years. So she did not even intend them to be about grief. Those five stages were about patients who were dying from terminal illness. And they became misinterpreted over the years and are now being spouted as five stages of grief. And from what I've read, she was like, “no, no, no. Like, that's not right.” And like, regretted how horribly they've been misconstrued. But now it's too late. It's in the zeitgeist. Whoa, isn't that crazy?

JAYMIE: That just blew my mind. I hope everybody that listens to your podcast, hears that and has so much love for themselves, that the stages are crap. But yeah, not necessarily the stages. I think the order and the timeline and the duration and just maybe some of the expectations and pressure that we put on ourselves for where we're supposed to be in the process.

HANNAH: Exactly. Yeah, the expectations that we're doing it wrong. Or that “oh my gosh, like why am I not following the stages?” It's kind of like I've come to, if it works for someone and it comforts them and helps them, like use it, you know? But if it makes you feel like you're doing it wrong, throw it out the window, forget it.

Yeah, I mean, it blew my mind too, when I learned that because I've been learning about the five stages since I was a kid. It's just been in the blood of the people. Just like we're born knowing it, it’s so strange. Yeah.

JAYMIE: You mentioned losing this dear friend of yours that it was sudden. Do you think I find that there's kind of this play that we have with some of our loved ones or our dear ones, of if I had more time than it would have been “sentence stem”, or if it hadn't been drawn out then it would have been “Sentence stem”. Do you find for your own experience of what prompted Friends Missing Friends that the suddenness was helpful or part of what was so difficult?

HANNAH: That's a great question. So because I don't have experience with a friend dying over time I can't really speak to that. I'm sure that that is horrific in its own completely unique way. But I can speak to a sudden disappearance. And it's horrible. It's horrible. For all the reasons you think, like you don't get a chance to say goodbye. You're shocked. It kind of wrecks your nervous system in a way that made me unsteady for months, maybe years, and made me scared that something else bad was gonna happen. Like all of a sudden I believed that anything horrible, like my worst nightmare could happen any second of any day. Which is a really scary way to move through the world. And also, in very specific ways. For example, she died on her birthday. And without even realizing it, even though the connection seems like it'd be so obvious, every time it was someone's birthday, in the back of my I was head scared they were going to die.

And there was one day where it was my sister's birthday a few years after my friend had passed, and I texted my sister happy birthday, and she didn't respond for hours because she was really busy. And I started panicking and I didn't know why I was panicking, because I didn't put two and two together yet. And then at the end of the day, she finally called me and I just burst into tears, because I was so relieved she was alive. And it wasn't until I heard her voice and was relieved that I was like, “oh my god, like, that's why I was so panicked. I thought that she was dead.” And when I told her that she was kind of like, “what? why would you think I'm dead?” Like that makes no sense because it's a connection that seems so strange unless you kind of know where it comes from, or kind of put two and two together.

I've also recently learned about ambiguous loss, which is most extreme and most common in people where someone's disappeared or their body is missing, or where it's much more ambiguous, not quite as final. So I did not feel it in that kind of extreme sense by any means, but it was still a bit ambiguous in that it felt like a disappearance from the earth. Because I never saw her body. It was just like she was there, and then I was told that she wasn't. It was people telling me she was dead. It was me going to a funeral seeing a closed coffin and being told she was inside of it. It was like, not really having the direct proof that my brain so desperately wanted, because I didn't want to believe that that was true. And so for months and months and months, my brain was still just trying to make sense of it. And I would have these recurring dreams of finding her alive. Because it was just a way for my brain to kind of figure it all out because I still didn't 100% believe it for a while. And instead of really believing it, it was like it slowly sunk in over a really long period of time. Which was just horrible. I don't know what other words to use to describe it. It was horrible.

JAYMIE: I think regardless of our experience, what I think is pretty captivating and pretty powerful is that our bodies are always trying to protect us. So I think it's fascinating that in that intake of information and data, unconsciously or consciously, there are warnings and triggers and things that it is doing, to try and keep you safe. Like, “oh no, it's a birthday,” right? Sound the alarm. So I think that that makes so much sense. I'm pretty astounded by how sophisticated our mechanics and systems are for how it's trying to protect us. And I think sometimes the way that it gives us information to process is helpful or not, it's just, it's amazing to me, and I think grief is not an exception to that.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's so true. And it's just like how the body and mind respond to trauma. It's trying to protect us, even if it ends up hurting us in different ways. That's pretty crazy.

JAYMIE: So on that, Hannah, could you share with us what you feel like you've learned about moving through grief based on this experience or based on, you know, what you've learned before and since?

HANNAH: One thing that I've learned is, actually, and I think this is because I've had distance just from time, is I am now kind of able to extend compassion to people who really pissed me off when I was grieving, because they said really hurtful things or did things that were very hurtful, unintentionally. And as incredibly frustrating as that is, I'm able to see it from a different perspective and extend compassion to them and also extend compassion to myself for getting so upset. Because it makes sense that I would get upset and I don’t want to be mad at myself for maybe not fully seeing the whole picture, you know, back then, of course I wouldn't. So yeah, a lot of like, just having compassion for kind of everyone involved because we're not taught what to say or what to do. So no wonder everyone, almost everyone does it in a way that’s not always helpful.

JAYMIE: So this is juicy, right? Because you have the you, somebody pass for you or you pass for them. Would you be willing to share with us for you and your experience? What were the things folks said or phrases people said that for you were really triggering or unhelpful?

HANNAH: I found that on the Instagram accounts I follow, there's a lot of the same phrases that a lot of people find upsetting. One is like, “oh, everything happens for a reason.” And I'm like, “so she died for a reason? Like, what reason would that be?” You know, like, no, it's just very very upsetting to hear that. Also, like, Oh, “God wanted another angel.” Don't even get me started. And anything that's trying to kind of put a positive spin on it. I'm like, “oh, but you had so many great years with her. Like a lot of people don't get that much time with someone, or a lot of people don't have a friend that close” and I'm like, I don't care. Like that's not what I'm focused on right now. And a lot of it because I've read because of the book It's okay that you're not okay. which everyone needs to read by Megan Devine.

She talks about how, what we really need and want is just for someone to fully acknowledge how horrible this is. And all the things I mentioned are doing the opposite of that, which I think is why they're so incredibly, incredibly upsetting. They're negating the reality of how horrible this is, which makes me feel invalidated and like, I'm not being seen I'm not being respected, I'm not being heard. And that you're kind of gaslighting the reality. And yourself. Yeah.

JAYMIE: Right of like what we said earlier. About, like your experience isn't as bad as if it was your sister or your brother or your kid or whoever.

HANNAH: Oh, my gosh, yeah, I gaslight myself too.

JAYMIE: Yeah, it's like external but then also internal.

HANNAH: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Coming from all directions.

JAYMIE: On the flip side of that, were there things that you found comforting? You alluded to the acknowledgement, right? And I will say maybe acknowledgement and not one upping of like, “oh, the time when I lost so and so.” I'll say it that way. Were there other phrases that you found helpful, that that you might recommend or you would use if there was somebody in your life that that lost a loved one?

HANNAH: Yeah, I actually, there was only one thing I wanted to hear. And it was amazing how often I did not hear it. And it was just, “I am so sorry.” “I'm so sorry this happened.” That's all I wanted to hear. And the majority of people did not say that.

And it's like, I don't think I would have known that before I went through this. I'm sure I've said incredibly hurtful things in the past that I don't even remember. But now I know that's all like that's what I should say. Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing that I really wanted.

JAYMIE: I'm wondering and I'm curious is the inverted dismissing of feeling is part of that. Do you attribute that or would you attribute that or a contributing factor as people being, people not being able to handle the discomfort that comes with seeing somebody else's grief, right? Like, it kind of seems like it's about them, not wanting to be uncomfortable with how much grief that you have. What would you, how would you attribute?

HANNAH:

No, I think that that makes sense. And yeah, also, it's, it comforts them too. And I totally understand that, like, it's hard to acknowledge the reality of something horrible. It's hard for anyone, and some people can't do that or don't want to or they're not in a mental or emotional place for that. I think that that's definitely part of it, for sure.

JAYMIE: I think I'm curious too, if now, I have also an American bias, right? So I'm curious if it is more like first world American, that we're so uncomfortable with the idea of grief and death, and just being able to negotiate and sit in that, right? I think my observation is that we're here for the party and the celebrations, but I think that there's not quite that, in the duality of life, right, like there is also the darkness and the night of things and I think my observation is that Americans, we Americans, have a very hard time sitting in the grief.

Now, if you do have the courage to be sitting in your own, I don't know that a lot of folks have the tools to go into somebody's hole while they're in grief and sit there with them and not fix and not, like, comfort and dismiss and not the things, right? Just hold their hand in the hole of grief and say, I'm so sorry. I just I'm not sure that we do that very well.

HANNAH: I agree. We don't. And one reason why I've learned to have so much compassion is because of situations where I've done that and I see how hard it can be sometimes. Because it's really, really scary to see someone you love in deep, deep pain. And sitting there with them can be really hard but when it happens, it's very, very healing.

JAYMIE: Did you ever get frustrated with your perceived timeframe of how long it was taking for you to get through it?

HANNAH: Yes, and I think other people perceived me as taking a long time as well. Because you know, the world says that it's a long time. I don't think it's anyone who has incorrect feelings about it. I think it's just the way the world sees it right now, or at least American society, is that like, after a certain amount of time, like you're stuck, right? Like why aren't you moving on?

And that was frustrating for me because I felt like I was doing it wrong. And I felt like I was overreacting, which is so ridiculous to say that out loud because what happened was absolutely horrible. It's like, I would never tell someone that they were overreacting if they were completely devastated after something so horrible happened. So why couldn't I extend myself that same compassion? I don't know. And no one was telling me I was overreacting. It was just myself. I was just telling that to myself.

JAYMIE: Right? I think we have, we've talked about this before, but one of the paradigm shifts for me with grief was thinking about the grief in your body like a chemical reaction. And gosh, there is a book that that alludes to this that I can't think of at the top of my head. But it is basically about research that dictates that if you don’t process through your grief, that it stays in your body, right? And it contribute to just all these different things that you don’t think that it would. And what I got out of it is it made me think of like the reaction needs to proceed, right?

So kind of like the status of classical music or like the, you know, just the things that are somber and still happen in nature are somber and still happen, specifically in music. It always makes me think of classical music. Just the real deep dark, like, achy chords together type stuff. You’re like, that doesn’t even sound good. But if they don't proceed, right, if you don't finish the song, if you don't move through the movement of it, you can't get over it. You can't get through it. And it just makes me think of how many people are hurt in the world that are hurting others because they can't acknowledge their hurt or they can't move through their hurt because they won’t let it come up enough to just go through it.

HANNAH: That's so true. And I can pinpoint the exact day that I was able to move it through my body. And it was when I wrote and performed a one-woman show about my friend and my grief and actually being witnessed, fully witnessed with full attention for the first time, because I think when you're performing people have to watch you and listen.

So I felt fully witnessed for the first time and I was able to express things that I didn't have words for earlier. I was able to cry, like literally cry on stage, not acting, like actually cry, and be witnessed in that. And because it was a play that I wrote, it was a journey from A to B to C so like, it was able to move through my body and out and be witnessed by other people. Which was like just the magic combination. And after I did the play, I realized it was Lauren's birthday. I didn't I didn't even realize that until after I did it. I like checked the date or something and I was like, like my whole body just like “ding!”. Like I was so shocked. I was like, of all the days of the year, it happened to be scheduled on her birthday. Like, I was like, that's that just felt really significant. And serendipitous and all those, synchronicitous, all those words. And then even that was healing on top of everything else. So it was like all these amazing things came together. On July 19th, 2020.

JAYMIE: I get this like vision of self, right? Like of like ointment that you put on like a wound. That's amazing. I love that for you. And I think, I hope folks can extrapolate the acting or doing something that helps move through it. Wow, that's amazing.

I want to tack on I think your courage and bravery to go through it to move through it, to then talk about and create through it, right? It's fabulous that it led you as an outlet for some of your acting. I also believe it led to a book.

HANNAH: Yes.

JAYMIE: Can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, share a bit about what that process has been like if you would with us, and both on the writing side, the publishing side, and then even the cathartic side of how that has been a part of your healing process.

HANNAH: Oh, my gosh, in so many ways. So I've always wanted to write a book I've always loved to write.

I kind of put that dream aside for a while. And then I wrote the play, and that gave me a lot of confidence that I was able to write and complete something. And I was like okay, I was able to write and complete a play. Maybe I can write a complete a book, and use the play as like inspiration or scaffolding.

And I mean, without that self-confidence in the beginning I think I would have really struggled to begin, because beginning is always the hardest, I think. But I took a lot of the stories and structure that I had in the play and used that to start the book. And writing the book has been so healing. I've gone through many, many drafts. I don't even know how many at this point. I mean, I save it as a new document every time I edit it so I have like 500 drafts, but I don't think that those all count. I'm always like, I might want to go back to the previous one. And I get all like anxious about that. But I have many drafts, and each draft has been so different and then I'm like discovering new things.

I have like made realizations as I've written. Like I made one me recently, actually. And that was that one of the main questions I've been struggling with over the course of my grief is, was what we had real? was the friendship that I had with her real, or was it all in my head, and that I made it more important after her death because of my grief? And it was like I was looking for proof. I was always looking for proof. And, you know, there was quote unquote proof everywhere, but nothing was enough. Right? You know, at the funeral there were pictures of me with her. That wasn't enough proof. Lauren's mother gave me a hug and said, “Thank you for being so special to Lauren.” That wasn't enough proof for me. I was invited to their house and allowed to go into her bedroom and look through her stuff. That wasn't enough proof. Like her parents welcomed me with open arms fully acknowledged our friendship. And that wasn't enough.

And I had a letter that Lauren wrote me that said how much she loved me. That wasn't enough because I told myself, “Oh, she wrote that years ago,” you know, just missed it. So it was like nothing fulfilled that proof. And it made me think, what is it that I'm looking for? And I think what I realized recently as I was writing was that the proof is just her.

The proof is her living and breathing. Because when she was alive it was a reciprocal relationship, right? Like, love went both ways. And this is true in any one passes away. It can feel like all the sudden the love is just going one way. It's just us into the abyss. And after a while of that, sometimes you can start to feel like you're going crazy. Or that you're obsessive or stuck in grief or whatever it is. But it's only because that quote unquote proof is gone.

And now that I finally know the answer to what I've been searching for, which is her, I've been searching for her, and I can't find her living and breathing because she's dead. So I'm gonna have to find another way to find peace with it. And I think that that's just going to continue to be a journey that I take.

[END OF PART 1]

JAYMIE: If you could, 30 year old Hannah, go back to sweet 23-year-old Hannah that just lost her friend. What would you say to her? What would you do for her? How would you comfort her? What would you tell her?

HANNAH: Well, I’m just imagining walking into her bedroom. She's lying on the bed just crying like tears just leaking into her ears and listening to episodes of The Office. [laughs] Like that was all I did for days and I did it so constantly that I went through all nine seasons in like three or four days because I had like a tablet and I carried it around with me everywhere. And I listened to The Office the moment I woke up, as I brushed my teeth, as I went to the bathroom, as I made my breakfast, while I ate my breakfast, I went to work and then came back from work immediately started again: as I made dinner, as I ate dinner, as I got ready for bed, as I took a shower as I laid in bed, as I fell asleep, the moment I woke up again. Which means that there was not a moment, not a moment where I was not trying to drown out the noise with it. And like so I’m imagining myself walking in and seeing that and just my heart just breaking and I would just give her a big hug. Gosh, and just say “I'm so sorry.”

And just like sit there next to her and just hug her like hold her in a hug for like an hour. I needed that so bad but I didn't know how to get that I didn't know how to ask for that. I just wanted to be embraced for an extended period of time. But instead I just isolated myself, you know, locked myself in a room and watched Netflix for 50,000 hours.

JAYMIE: There is that piece of like identifying what we need, step one, and then two, having the skills and the language to ask for what we need is such a step of maturity in grief, of like having that, you know actually what I need is to be held and procuring somebody to hold you in a way that's helpful, in a way that you can communicate the things. I just I think that that is that can be understated. I mean, I think that also speaks to the growth that you could probably do that for yourself now. I also think it's really interesting that I think I've read that part of that cyclical like watching nine seasons nonstop, especially if it's something that comforts you or you've seen before where you know everything that's going to happen, can be a part of the grief cycle but it's also a part of the not wanting to process yet or just trying to defer the processing while you're in like the first – I don't know, I've heard it's a thing.

HANNAH: Yeah, it's absolutely deferring it. Because I remember the moment that the last episode of The last season finished my body actually went into shock. And I was like, “Oh no. Oh no, it’s done? Oh my god. Oh no. What am I going to do?” And I started bawling like I was like scream crying because The Office had ended. Because I didn't have a next episode to immediately go into because you know how Netflix like two seconds and then it immediately starts. It was just silence. And I couldn't handle five seconds of silence. So I started crying and screaming the hardest I'd cried and screamed in days since I had started watching. So I literally had just put it off until later because I was like I can't right now and then eventually had to face it, like it's just so hard. And also I do want to say that asking for things is really really hard, especially when you're in that dark, dark, dark, dark state of mind. And I don't know if I could do it now if I was in that state because first of all, I don't even know who I would ask like, “Hey, can you come over and hug me for an hour?”

JAYMIE: I would totally fly to Chicago right now.

HANNAH: Awww, thank you. Now we have this, so we’ve talked about it before so now I can ask you but without that I don’t know if I could’ve.

JAYMIE: It’s like in Finding Nemo when you're talking about the exit buddy, like you want to have this conversation when you're in a good place of like who your exit buddy is.

HANNAH: Yes, find, your exit buddy.

JAYMIE: When you’re in the freaking hole you gotta call up your exit buddy and be like, so remember, we talked about this thing? It was like we were half joking, but like serious, here it is.

HANNAH: Yes. Oh my gosh. So true. And it's like I hadn't had that conversation before. So I didn't have an exit buddy [laughs]. Like okay, so theoretically, I totally could have gone home to my parents and ask them to hug me but I couldn't for some reason I couldn't go home. They offered to come be with me. And I said no, because I didn't know what to do with that support. I was like, if you're here, I'll literally just be lying in bed. I was like, I don't know what you would do if you were here. So I just rejected it. But that could have been an opportunity where I could have had that. And it's also the thing of like, you know, so there's friends, there's family. I didn't have a romantic partner, to share the bed with or to cuddle with or to hug me so, because of that I felt very much like, “oh, like, I just can't have it. It's not accessible to me.” Because I still had that frame of mind where it's like, that's what the romantic partner gives you. Like, you can't cut it with a friend. You know, that was my mindset. So it's like, well I guess I'll just be alone. But my mind is opening up over time. So I'm hoping now, I could do that.

JAYMIE: There is the human piece. And I think the physiological piece right, the science of it, and I think something that I learned through COVID and going through it I mean, I at this moment in time that we're recording, I lived by myself and I'm single and I just lived through COVID in this house that I am single and living by myself. So I think there was it was incredibly isolating for all the reasons that it was, and I think part of the healing process but also the human spirit thing or the human spirit aspect is we are meant and created to be in community and whatever that looks like. And there is a physiological I think it's a resetting of the parasympathetic system, that when you have an anxiety blanket or physical person that is holding you, like it, it resets it. So there is also the like, “oh, emotionally I feel like they want this thing,” but physiologically, it is part of the science of how we reset and recalibrate. And I think that that is incredibly kind for all of us to know that there is the emotional piece of it, but then there's also the this is how my body works. And I don't know for me somehow that's comforting of like that what I'm craving or what I would want is natural and also a part of the, I will say the complex part of what it is to be human right. It's both.

HANNAH: Oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes. Yes. And I think that I mean as a society, we are so, so touch deprived, like I'm trying to even think back to the last time I hugged someone. It's probably been a few weeks. I think maybe the last time I hugged someone was at the retreat we went to. Yeah, I don't think I've had someone for a few weeks and even then, before that it had been probably several weeks. So I hug someone maybe once a month and then I don't I cuddle someone once a year, you know, so it's like or just lately at least, especially because of COVID. [laughs] It makes me sound so alone.

JAYMIE: We're working through it.

HANNAH: It’s a period of time I'm going through, but I also think it's a period of time that a lot of people go through a lot of the time. I don't know it's a whole, I could I could rant about it for forever. But yeah, like I was probably so so desperate for physical affection. When especially when I was grieving like I had a therapist that I talked to. I screamed into a pillow I wrote in my journal, you know, I did everything I was told to do. But I didn't get many hugs, you know? And it's like, oh, like, I just wish I could go back and give her a hug. You know, like, it's just really hard. It's really hard.

JAYMIE: I think that makes so much sense. Yeah, I think the other thing that today-Hannah maybe could tell much younger-Hannah is how courageous you end up being and all of the projects that you alchemize your grief through and that it gets better.

HANNAH: Yeah, and it's like Young Hannah got really mad whenever someone told me “it gets better.” But like, it is true. So it's like I don't want to tell, I hesitate to tell people that because it can sound like a platitude. But as far as in my experience, like it did get better over time. And I do want people to have that hope. But I also don't want to diminish how horrible it is. So that can be tricky.

JAYMIE: You know, it's funny that you say that. That’s really fair, and totally valid, right? Like there's kind of like when you're in it, if you're not ready to hear that yet, like, that's not the thing I need to hear. Punch somebody in the face like that is not helpful. But I do think like, at least for me, older-me being able to tell younger-me like, “get through this, and it doesn't stay like this forever.” At least for me, I think I have felt like been in those dark nights or dark seasons where I think that's kind of one of the things right if like, is this gonna get better?

HANNAH Yeah, it really feels like it’s not.

JAYMIE: It seems like it’s not going to. Like when you're not ready to hear that because you're in it it sounds like complete BS. But I also think that's part of like the existential like tension in it right of like, I have to get through this to get somewhere. If I get through this and it gets worse or stay here, like, for what am I doing this?

HANNAH: It's so true. Yeah.

JAYMIE: It's horrible.

HANNAH: It's horrible. It's horrible. And I can even like, kind of drop myself back into that feeling a little bit, not fully, but I can kind of remember it. And it is kind of like the darkness is so thick that it's like right in front of the eyes. You know, so it, it's just squeezing you and it doesn't feel like there's anything forward or sideways or backwards. It just feels like you're completely encased. And so it is kind of impossible to see how it could ever end.

JAYMIE: I even think when I've had those seasons or those periods I don't even know that I would have fully believed that. Somebody could have said the words, older me could have said the words younger me, I think they would have just felt like words, like I'm not sure that I even would have believed them. Because I don't know that like that feels very true in that moment. But there is part of that perseverance of just like I don't know continue to try and trudge through it even though you're not quite sure, or you don't quite believe that it is going to change. And then one day slowly it does. At least for me it was kind of like, when you watch a sunset and like that gradient is so like slow that from one moment to the next I don't know that like you ever really see like the sun wasn't up and now it's up. It's more like it happens before your eyes slowly that you're like “oh, it's morning.”

HANNAH: That’s such a beautiful metaphor.

JAYMIE: It's like very gradual, you can't pinpoint the exact moment, but you can look back and be like “oh well it's definitely not nighttime anymore.”

HANNAH: [laughs] I love that.

JAYMIE: Well it’s not pitch black.

HANNAH: I love that metaphor. That's really sweet. Yeah, and I think it's if I do ever encounter someone that's in that space, and I want to give them that perspective, I will definitely be very aware to also fully acknowledge where they are now. And I'm wondering if there's a way to do both in a way because I can just see me being like “EFF YOU!” like just immediately been like “get out of here!” So, yeah. I’ll have to think about that.

JAYMIE: I think that's a great point, right? Like figuring out what part of qualifying your own experience might be helpful to them. But I think there is that that very much encasement of like your experience and best friendship and grief and processing dark things might not be somebody else's, it's gonna look different for everybody. But I think there are nuggets that if you've heard from somebody that's been through something, there might be a nugget for you to take from that. I think that's valid.

HANNAH: Yeah. Yeah. And it might be like if someone's in this space, the headspace and the emotional space to hear from someone who's, quote unquote, on the other side of it, because some sometimes people are like, eager to hear. And sometimes people are like, “no, like, I don't want that.” And maybe it's just dependent on that, as to whether or not it would like mean anything to them.

JAYMIE: Yeah. No, I think that that's super helpful. I'm curious to see in Friends Missing Friends what some of those categories, phases, skills, activities, conversation starters, sentence stems, like what that ends up looking like? Because I do I think it feels like a toolbox of it's not ever going to be one size fits all and what one person needs the next person doesn't. And it's them figuring out where they're at just as much as it's you trying to figure out how what does support look like?

All of the above.

HANNAH: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like if all else fails, you don't know what to say. I really think a great go to is “I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that this happened to you.”

JAYMIE: Yes. Just acknowledging, sitting with them in it for a sentence, a phrase, a conversation. A day if they’re your exit buddy. Whatever that looks like.

HANNAH: [laughs] I love that we came up with the word exit buddy because of Finding Nemo.

JAYMIE: Oh my gosh, I think I actually think that's kind of amazing, though. Right? Like, especially like in terms of a tool. That's totally a tool. It's a reference that people will get. It's a tool that they'll have of like, oh yeah, I do need that person. That I could call to come get me out of a ditch when I get my car stuck. Like I mean emotionally in grief. Like I mean that metaphorically. But like you have somebody to call like if you don't have that AAA, right then you're gonna feel like you have to isolate.

HANNAH: And it's really hard because sometimes we don't have that person and sometimes the person who would have been that person is the person that died. And that is such a horrible scary place to be. I mean, I would have reached out to her. She would have been one of the first people I reached out to if I was grieving. But I couldn’t

JAYMIE: Yeah. She was your person to grieve with and she was the reason that you are grieving. That’s how I feel about Leila. I mean, I think it's similar but different right. I think there is this like, to my soul how much I miss her. I mean, just a soul connection like I, there are not that many humans that I have loved in this world as much as I loved my dog. And I think part of that grief at least for me, it feels really sacred. Like there's part of this grieving process that has been honoring how big my love for her was. So correspondingly my grief is that deep.

HANNAH: Yes. Yes.

JAYMIE: Like it is the peak and the valley. And I think what's interesting for me in that having, having processed a little bit, or some periods of grief and other places in my life, there's been almost this sacredness to when I bring her up, how I bring her up. It really being only around people that I feel like get it. And that has been such an interesting thing, because there's really, I will say, just not that many people that do. So there's a little bit that I have had to try and navigate of that what's helpful because I think there's the, if my people that I feel like get it or unavailable in that moment, then I do find myself in those, well, I'm isolating and I don't want to talk about it because people don't get it or you know, like she was my cuddle-bug. She was who I shared my bed with. She was who made my house not empty.

So I mean in my adulthood and my 30 year old, grown-up-ness, she was my whole family, like she was my household. And so I think there is that like, corresponding grief was so deep for me. And that I was able to say all of that and not completely lose it. I'm a little surprised about, but there's also that where socially or societally or culturally, the “my dog died,” might happen on a Friday, by Monday you should be back in the office. And so, there has also been this interesting tumult like it has flipped my world and my life upside down. Like there's part of it that I feel very grateful for, because I'm very aware that the depth of my grief corresponds how much that I loved. But there's also just this real big misunderstanding. I feel like in specifically in the workplace for how deep a loss it is, right? Like, I mean, I could legit in my brain this could have been like a full-blown bereavement for what a shift it was in my life and what a 180 it was for me to start to, I mean, part of my worrying about hitting the floor was or what the floor looks like, was part of the idea of losing her. I couldn't imagine how I was going to exist in the world without her. It felt like I couldn't.

And I think the hypothetical like I can't imagine this is part of the fear around loss, right? Because, I couldn't imagine it. I couldn't imagine the world without her and I couldn't imagine existing without her. And what was that going to look like? And how was I going to feel in it and there's a part of me that feels, I don't know if guilt is the right word. There's a part of me that feels like now I am doing this impossible thing. Because she's not here and I'm slowly, I mean, I have good days and bad days. And you know, but I think that's part of it. Right? It's like, that whole idea of what does it look like when you're grieving? A very dear someone that the world is telling you it doesn't matter as much as it feels like it matters.

HANNAH: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's absolutely true with pets, like I don't think that the world always acknowledges how important they really are to us.

JAYMIE: I think to circle all the way back to something you said earlier. Her passing was beautiful. And something that I found a lot of closure in was being an active participant. And I will say helping her leave, that did give me a lot of closure. I think also that focus, at least for me with regards to pets in regards to her was wanting to make sure that I made decisions that were in her best interest in acting on her behalf versus prolonging what was no longer a high quality of life. So I think that there was kind of those decisions that I had to make on the front end before I was too emotional. Right, like I needed, like, the criteria of you know, when she can no longer be herself, then I'll know, those types of things. But one thing you said about the actual funeral and what really has been part of what has been instrumental for me in the processing. I knew that she needed to be at my family's ranch. And so we left to the vet, scheduled an appointment with the vet, the vet put her down. My family met me and we went straight to our family's ranch and I think I just felt so seen and supported. My family was around but they really let me do the things. And so I actually I used the backhoe that we dug the hole, and then I placed her in it. And so like I was a part of the whole process of her final resting place.

That was such closure and such like a resting place, my nephew made like this beautiful little cross for her and like did like a heart of rocks and stuff like that. We put up some wild flowers for her and so I think there's just that other piece of every time I go to the ranch, she's there. And that's exactly where she should be.