Episode 12: Grief is the Other Side of Love
HANNAH: You said the more you know about grief, the more you know about life. Could you tell me a little bit about what you mean by that? Because I just love that quote so much.
ROBIN: Well, because at the beginning, when you're younger, you sort of think that from this like naive standpoint, because you just don’t know a lot about life. So you sort of put everything into boxes like this is what you do when you grieve, and this is what you do when you're happy and this is what you do when you study and this is what you do when you're sad and this is how all the things and how they work. But you don't realize actually that everything has like this thread running through it. It's all like interconnected. And actually how you do one thing is probably how you do all the other things, the same way. So if you're the kind of person that needs to be quiet, and needs to dwell and needs to sit and think and feel and you know, just do all of that. It's probably how you’re gonna grieve, it's probably how you can be in your quiet moments when you want to reflect and get like a brainstorming session or how you want to like find like what you really actually want to do like, it's like your go-to thing.
And if you're the kind of person who's angry and dramatic, then that's what you're going to do. And if you're the kind of person who's controlling then that's what you're going to do and I just feel like, the more you like live life, you sort of alter your story as you go depending, you know, as you grow up. And like the story that once was you that defines you, right?
As you get older sort of doesn't define you anymore, but like it's not really what you are or who you are anymore. And so the way the way you grieve changes.You know, when I when I think about grieving, and I think about like losing my mom at three, I didn't know what grieving was. I had no idea what grieving was and not only didn't I have an idea of grieving was, nobody expected me to. Actually everybody gave me permission not to.
Like they also gave me this permission like “Oh, you were too young. You were too young.” But on the other side of it, and being a mom and seeing my kids grow up, when they lost a fish when they were three they were super sad. So I don't know. I mean, I know it was 1963 and people did things differently then, but I can't imagine I didn't ask for her. I didn't miss her. I didn't look for her. I didn't talk about her. I must have been doing all of those things. So I wonder. Like so that was my version of grieving. Yeah, like just the asking the looking the seeking and then people saying whatever they said to me in response to that.
But what really ended up happening was that because I never actually grieved at three, then when I was 36 and I sort of was hitting me that my daughter and I think I was 33 and my daughter was turning three. And I was worried that I wasn't gonna make it past 36 because that's when my mother died. And I was thinking like, oh, so this is all she's gonna know about me.
And I think that when you are in all of that and you're feeling all of that, all of a sudden then I was grieving for my mother, except the fact that nobody else knew about it. It was like a secret. So I was walking around in grief for the mother that I lost 33 years ago, but still was expected to bring my son to school, my daughter to nursery school, do my thing. Do all the things. And even when I spoke to my sister and my father about it, I couldn't really talk to my father but my sister, she was just like, oh, not like I'm sorry. Like the things that you typically would say to somebody when they grieve like, oh, oh, that's what you're doing today. It was kind of sort of like more like colloquial it was weird. Like what we're saying, you know, like, it was like, Oh, you chose to do that today. Like, like, instead of like, this is what, what's going on for you. So then you flash forward and you go to tons of my you know, like when I lost my mother in law, and again, it was everybody else's grief but it wasn't my mother and then we like or other people in my family have died. It's just the way that goes. But then when you're in a situation where you actually are grieving a friend, who isn't a family member, who was such an integral part of your life, like your actually daily life.
And not to say that your parent isn't a part of your daily life, but I mean, I just lost my dad so I can tell you that that's hard. You know that that history of losing that is hard. But when you lose a friend, it's completely different because those are the people that you laugh with. Those are the people you're silly with. Those are the people that you make memories with, when you are at the pinnacle of your life. Like you know doing things, going out to dinner, having a lot of fun sharing your family and their family and having dinners together because you choose to.
And the more you share the more you’re sort of like closer, you know, and so when you lose that it's like this disconnect that happens to all those feelings and you don't know where to stick them. You don't know where to put them. And the worst part of that is that if that person is married, like in my case, person is married that person who survives doesn't actually want to be with you. Because it even hurts them more to be with people who remind you of them. Now, you've lost the person who died plus you’ve lost the person who’s not.
HANNAH: oh my gosh, yeah, it's so heartbreaking.
ROBIN: Right? And it's like, I mean, it's their choice and then what am I gonna, you can't say anything. It's their choice to grieve the way that they want to grieve, their choice to want to make a new life. But at the same time, it's like that whole section of your life just is gone in the flash of the man dying, this person dying. And I don't think that that's what death is supposed to be from the intuitive stance, but I know that he's in a better place and, not a better place. He's in a good place. And I know that he's with, he's watching them and he's with them, but our human experience and this human experience. Like I miss that, I miss that connection, you know, with his wife with his children with my family. But on understanding why I get it, why she can't be friends with us. I don't judge her for it. I makes perfect sense to me that she can't, It's too hard. But during the process of it all it's like when I think about the fact that that man passed away, it feels like it happened like the day before yesterday. And at the same time, it feels like it happened Like 25 years ago.
HANNAH: How long did it happen?
ROBIN: Probably 10, 12 years ago. You know, and but it's like you've lost that whole we lost that whole connection. That whole all those friends, that whole network of people. So he died and then I lost his wife and the other friend that they were friends with and they said there was like, I don’t know, like 15-16 people that we were friends with. And then we'll that's it. That whole thing is gone. And that's sort of sad.
HANNAH: It's really sad.
ROBIN: Right?
HANNAH: Yeah, I'm so sorry. That sucks.
ROBIN: Yeah, and the funny thing about it is that I understand why she had to do what she did. And then why she had to separate herself from it all. But when I say grief, is like life how it changes is that like now if I go back to the restaurant that we used to go to, I can see us sitting at those tables. And laughing and remembering all those times and they were a part of the life that I had in that moment. And when you think about it, everything is. Like all your memories, everything that you've ever experienced are from the memories that you remember. And aren't we lucky that we get to do that. That we got to experience that that we got to feel that connection that we got to really have that good time and that never dies, no matter what's happening in the here and the now.
HANNAH: I love that because that is like so hard to accept when it you know a person is gone. And also maybe a friend group is gone even if they're still alive. And so in some ways it feels like that the good experiences are like are dead. But it's hard to come to terms that like they still happened. It's still real. You know, I don't know why it took me so long to kind of accept that like, almost like someone's death cancels it somehow, which it doesn’t.
ROBIN: Yeah and I could totally see that but it also makes you feel like you don't know who you are if you're not with those people.
HANNAH: Oh, yes.
ROBIN: Like the identity of who you were was me in that restaurant with that group of people, oh that’s them at that table with that group that live group of, you know, 18 people Oh my god. They're making so much noise and cracking up because the cosmos went over the top because we were laughing while we were drinking and just that haze of all of that. And in that moment when it's all happening you feel like it's gonna happen like that forever. Like you actually don't think oh, this could, this is going to end. this is gonna stop. You don't think that. And you know what I think the teacher of all that is because I really believe that there is wisdom from pain. And I think the wisdom from all of that is that the reality that you can be so enmeshed in something and so much of a part of something that your value is so connected to the other people actually isn't true. That your value is yours and you're adding it to the group, that your value isn't because you're part of the group.
HANNAH: Right. That is huge, because like what you were saying earlier that it's like a part of you is gone too. So it's like the person died, your friend group died and in a way your identity died. And so I experienced that as well. When my friend Lauren passed away. It was the death of so many things. It was the death of her. I grieved our past. I grieved her future. I grieved our future. I grieved who I was with her, like just it's just and that friend group because we also kind of stopped talking. And part of it was I was scared to reach out to them because I didn't want to re-traumatize them because there was the shared trauma. And it's hard to know when you can bring that up, you know…
ROBIN: Right, right? No, it's weird. It's the same thing. Yeah. Like, where do you talk about it? And then when I used to get together with his wife, like you couldn't talk about it. Unless she talked about it. And it was just, Yeah, it's very hard.
HANNAH: I think that like some people can are such a good fit with our personality that they can make us shine more, or like, I guess really, they're making us feel more comfortable with who we are. And so because of that, that part of ourselves just shows more easily.
ROBIN: You know what I think? I think some people are really good shiny mirrors. So that we can actually see ourselves. Do you ever notice that sometimes people say, Well, I could see that for you, or I could or that that I really like that was that's really great for you. Or like, you come to life when you're with that person. That's because those people have already seen it in you, and they've already spotted that in you. They could see it for you. But even though you can't and that's one of the reasons why I think we befriend people because they can see in us what we actually can't see. And we like what they see. And so it's sort of just like, oh, yeah, like I like that version that you see. I'd like to be that person. Y’know and they’re like, well you are that person, but we're not seeing it until later on.
Now here's this person, this relationship that you have with this person who sees you as you, you can be yourself with that person. And now they're not here anymore. So who’s gonna be your mirror?
HANNAH: Aww…Oh, yeah, we have to like. I don't know.
ROBIN: So I learned along the way I had to be my own mirror.
HANNAH: Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's probably an important skill to have to be able to see the good in yourself, even without people you love showing it to you, but that's hard.
ROBIN: But I actually well, that's personal growth. I mean, I guess that's the reason why I'm a life coach. Because I think that especially women don't take a lot of time noticing the goodness that they actually have and it's a lot easier to find the flaws. And when you are in a friendship where you feel this this connection with this person, it's unspoken and it feels so good. It's like putting on your favorite pair of sweat pants, but multiplied by 1000. You just can be on the phone. I mean, the only thing I could actually equate it to and he wasn't like my best friend this man that died. He was a family friend of ours. But it didn't matter. I mean, like when I was getting dressed because we need to I knew I was going out with those people. We knew we were going to have a good time.
It would just was an understanding that we were going to have a good time and that it was going to be fun. And even the kids liked each other and they were going to have a good time. So it was just this feeling of extension of family. Like they became like family. So sometimes I think when you have a friend like that, and you adopt them into your family into your groove into your space, when you lose them…it's like you have to resculpture what your family network looks like. And the truth is, is that my husband and I don't have that many friends anymore. We really just don't because you can’t just go buy them at Toys R Us.
HANNAH: It's hard to find friends.
ROBIN: it's really hard to find friends but then it's really hard to find a couple friends.
HANNAH: Oh yeah.
ROBIN: That's a whole other element. You know, where you both like the other people. You know, I'm gonna get started with the kids but like, yeah, because it just becomes more complicated.
But I have a question for you. Do you find yourself remembering things and smiling and having people that you could share those memories with about her and keeping those memories alive?
HANNAH: I have a lot of memories. And I have been told that I have unusually good long-term memory. Just because I'll be like Mom, Dad, remember when I was three and we went to this restaurant in they’re like what? So I remember so much, like hundreds and hundreds of moments with my friend and I, they do a lot of them do make me smile. But I do have trouble knowing who to share them with because I don't really talk to our mutual friends so much anymore. And sometimes I might bring it up to another friend. But honestly, now that I'm thinking I can't remember the last time I did that. I've mostly been writing it instead of like speaking it.
ROBIN: And that's really amazing that you wrote this book about her and that's great. But I have to say, I have to say that when you actually can verbally talk about something that made you laugh, or something that like you just remember that was such a great moment when you can just share it. It brings the essence of that person's spirit into the moment. And then you feel like you are allowing people to have a taste of what she was. And I think that is like the biggest gift you can give to somebody who passed away.
HANNAH: that's so beautiful. Can I share a memory?
ROBIN: I’d love one!
HANNAH: Yeah. Okay. She and I met the first day of Interlochen Summer Arts Camp, so we met in line. She was like the first person I met and then we just really clicked. And we walked around the grounds together and explored and it was like one of the first couple of days so I was still kind of getting to know her. She was really shy at first and then slowly became more and more extroverted and silly. And then we were just like walking and then all of a sudden she starts she like just darts off and starts galloping like a horse. I like cracking whip and be like and being like neeeeiggghh, and she's 14 and I'm 17 and I just like stared at her for a second and then like, just joined in behind her and like started galloping with her.
I hadn't had the opportunity to act like that in so long because the friends I was with in high school were trying to be more like adults. Right and I I missed that childhood silliness. And here she was like, portraying that and I was like so giddy with joy.
ROBIN: Well, it sort of like unleashed you,
HANNAH: Oh, absolutely.
ROBIN: To be like anything. That's great. That's great. She was a real free spirit.
HANNAH: Oh, yeah. That would be exactly how I would describe her, free spirit.
ROBIN: Yeah, but you know, something, and this is a message that she's actually telling me to tell you right now, is that you can't close your heart off to the possibility that your heart could be filled by another person again. That just because something was so incredible and amazing with me. Don't close your heart off in thinking that you have to preserve it like that in remembrance of me, and know that you get to open it up even more. That that muscle of your heart is so expansive, filled with so much love and compassion that you actually get to expand it even larger and allow even more in.
HANNAH: Wow.
ROBIN: Does that make sense?
HANNAH: Yeah, does. She told you to tell me that?
ROBIN: Yeah. She told me to tell you that because she has a feeling that you're sort of like holding your heart closed so that you have everything from her in it. And you're sort of closing yourself off from other experiences where you might find another connection. And you're not purposely doing it because you don't want to find another connection. But it's more about the fact that you want to cherish the one that you've had with her. So she's telling me to tell you that your heart is a huge muscle and that you have so much love within you and that the best way that you can actually honor that love for yourself is by loving yourself more and energetically, you will attract more love into your life.
HANNAH: I think that that whole thing of like loving yourself and I don't know what it is about the depths of despair that comes with grief sometimes that make, that sometimes twists into self-hatred, at least for me, and I don't know why. Like I think it was because I had so much hatred for what happened and for just anger and I didn't know where to put it. So the only place I could direct it was to myself. I don't know if that's why that happens. But yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's --
ROBIN: I think that when you are d-, it's like it's like the whole thing. Have you ever heard of the comparison about fear and excitement?
HANNAH: Oh, yeah, that they're like the same thing. Almost.
ROBIN: So I almost feel like when you're in grief and you are that people get feel like grief and depression go together. And that, um…pain and love go together. You know, so I feel like when you're in so much pain, you almost feel like well then you can't be in love in the feeling of love. But the reason why you're in the pain to begin with is because you were in such a deep feeling of love. Like you couldn't have the one without the other.
HANNAH: Exactly, because you're feeling so much pain because of all the love you have for that person.